Re: Hemel New York : Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:31 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Ok, let's have a discussion on where the game should be heading and why people actually watch the game.

Personally, I follow Trinity because I'm from Wakefield and RL IS part of the culture.
Yes, there is a myriad of choice when it comes to how one may wish to spend their time and amongst other things, I follow Wakefield.
This usually means all home games, barring the odd one that may clash with something "more important" and I also attend around 70% of away fixtures, including Catalan, plus, home international games.
The most enjoyable fixtures are the derby games (Leeds and Cas especially) plus, the annual trip to Perpignan and I've done this for most of the last 35 years.
Despite doubting that Toronto should be in the competition, I will also attend this fixture when they make it into SL, although this is likely to be a one off, rather than an annual trip.

As I have said previously, RL has no sensible forward thinking, none and I firmly believe that replacing UK based sides with N. American clubs, will kill the game in this country and IF the sport is serious about growing the game over here, "we" should target an area, give it 5 years (minimum) of the Magic Weekend to help generate local interest and assuming the "new" club was in SL, protect them from relegation for 3 -5 years.
WE should also look at ensuring that Toulouse are included in SL a.s.a.p. to try and lift the games profile in France.

At this point, moving "magic" back to Newcastle would be sensible, to allow their fan base to grow as, currently, Magic is nothing more than a mickey up and it's not doing anything to "spread the gospel".

Maybe "we" could also consider having Magic or maybe The Challenge Cup Final at the Nou Camp, which again would create some great publicity.

You've not mentioned anything about marketing & TV games which hits new audiences and would attract new supporters in all areas and particularly new growth areas
Also growing grass roots rugby to hook kids and families into the game- in new areas

Moving 'stuff around' is no different to introducing a shot clock. Its gets noticed by the regulars

Re: Hemel New York : Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:35 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Ok, let's have a discussion on where the game should be heading and why people actually watch the game.

Personally, I follow Trinity because I'm from Wakefield and RL IS part of the culture.
Yes, there is a myriad of choice when it comes to how one may wish to spend their time and amongst other things, I follow Wakefield.
This usually means all home games, barring the odd one that may clash with something "more important" and I also attend around 70% of away fixtures, including Catalan, plus, home international games.
The most enjoyable fixtures are the derby games (Leeds and Cas especially) plus, the annual trip to Perpignan and I've done this for most of the last 35 years.
Despite doubting that Toronto should be in the competition, I will also attend this fixture when they make it into SL, although this is likely to be a one off, rather than an annual trip.

As I have said previously, RL has no sensible forward thinking, none and I firmly believe that replacing UK based sides with N. American clubs, will kill the game in this country and IF the sport is serious about growing the game over here, "we" should target an area, give it 5 years (minimum) of the Magic Weekend to help generate local interest and assuming the "new" club was in SL, protect them from relegation for 3 -5 years.
WE should also look at ensuring that Toulouse are included in SL a.s.a.p. to try and lift the games profile in France.

At this point, moving "magic" back to Newcastle would be sensible, to allow their fan base to grow as, currently, Magic is nothing more than a mickey up and it's not doing anything to "spread the gospel".

Maybe "we" could also consider having Magic or maybe The Challenge Cup Final at the Nou Camp, which again would create some great publicity.

The Magic Weekend is like a mickey up because that's what it is designed to be. It's designed to be an event that the RFL can sell to cities and venues. Any notion of it being an "expansion" exercise is either secondary, or manufactured by people who want to point out that it doesn't work.

RL may not have sensible forward thinking, but that's not just an RFL issue. Where is the forward thinking at the vast majority of our clubs to improve the matchday experience, to generate bigger crowds, to reach new audiences that don't currently buy into the sport, to attract new commercial partners and to make the TV product more attractive? There's very little evidence of any of it and these are all within the capabilities of the clubs.

The reason why North America has even made it onto the agenda is because the clubs here aren't doing these things. Whether that is through inability or inaction, our clubs have generally decided that instead of doing things that will grow the sport, the best way to stop the rot is to keep offering cheap tickets, insist that the need more loop fixtures to get more money from a declining supporter base and to make the playing talent take real-terms pay cuts for 20 years. You cannot blame the RFL for any of that - its the clubs that are voting for loop fixtures, the clubs that are under-selling the sport with cheap tickets, the clubs that are offering stadium sponsorships as raffle prizes and the clubs who aren't attracting new audiences. If they were doing these things, the appeal of having a team in Canada or New York is massively reduced.

You're right in that RL may well be a proud tradition in Wakefield, as it is in many other towns and small cities. But even if you take Canada and the US out of the equation, if this sport and the clubs continue with this path, how much of a tradition do you think it will be for the next generation and the generation after that?

Re: Hemel New York : Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:47 pm  

bramleyrhino wrote:

The Magic Weekend is like a mickey up because that's what it is designed to be. It's designed to be an event that the RFL can sell to cities and venues. Any notion of it being an "expansion" exercise is either secondary, or manufactured by people who want to point out that it doesn't work.

RL may not have sensible forward thinking, but that's not just an RFL issue. Where is the forward thinking at the vast majority of our clubs to improve the matchday experience, to generate bigger crowds, to reach new audiences that don't currently buy into the sport, to attract new commercial partners and to make the TV product more attractive? There's very little evidence of any of it and these are all within the capabilities of the clubs.

The reason why North America has even made it onto the agenda is because the clubs here aren't doing these things. Whether that is through inability or inaction, our clubs have generally decided that instead of doing things that will grow the sport, the best way to stop the rot is to keep offering cheap tickets, insist that the need more loop fixtures to get more money from a declining supporter base and to make the playing talent take real-terms pay cuts for 20 years. You cannot blame the RFL for any of that - its the clubs that are voting for loop fixtures, the clubs that are under-selling the sport with cheap tickets, the clubs that are offering stadium sponsorships as raffle prizes and the clubs who aren't attracting new audiences. If they were doing these things, the appeal of having a team in Canada or New York is massively reduced.

You're right in that RL may well be a proud tradition in Wakefield, as it is in many other towns and small cities. But even if you take Canada and the US out of the equation, if this sport and the clubs continue with this path, how much of a tradition do you think it will be for the next generation and the generation after that?

Sorry Bramley but, you are utterly wrong about magic weekend.

It was "sold" as "taking the sport to new areas" and the only reason for it retreating to Manchester was falling attendances and I believe that it is you that is changing it's remit to suit YOUR agenda.

As for yet another swipe at Trinity regarding selling "raffle" tickets for it's stadium naming rights, I think this has been pretty successful.
It generates the same level of "sponsorship", if not more, than just "selling" the rights, whilst engaging with a greater number of local companies

As for the cheap tickets, you are correct. However, the catalyst to this was the threat of expulsion for clubs not reaching the RFL target of 10,000 attendances and the effects of this are still being felt at clubs like Huddersfield that can no longer sell their tickets at full price.
Cheap tickets are utterly counter productive and they cheapen the product.

Re: Hemel New York : Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:51 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Toulouse, should have been promoted (along with Toronto) into a 14 club SL, end of.

My Irony meter has just exploded......after 2 decades of "London don't deserve a spot.....poor Keighley", the one time we do earn the spot and we shouldn't be there?
That Round 1 defeat still hurting?

Re: Hemel New York : Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:18 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Sorry Bramley but, you are utterly wrong about magic weekend.

It was "sold" as "taking the sport to new areas" and the only reason for it retreating to Manchester was falling attendances and I believe that it is you that is changing it's remit to suit YOUR agenda.

Magic Weekend came about because the Welsh Tourism industry, which had got hooked on sports fans staying in Cardiff whilst Wembley was under construction, threw £1m at the RFL to host an event that would fill hotel beds in Cardiff. Expansion was not the agenda. It's move back to Manchester was influenced by a similar deal with the North West Tourism / Development agency and an arrangement with Manchester City, who were influenced by the profit from bar sales. The events in Newcastle also had similar economics behind them.

The idea of expansion may have been mentioned in various sales pitches, but I'm sure you understand that what influences decisions and what actually gets "sold" to the public are two very different things. Magic Weekend is about profit - nothing else matters.

As for yet another swipe at Trinity regarding selling "raffle" tickets for it's stadium naming rights, I think this has been pretty successful.
It generates the same level of "sponsorship", if not more, than just "selling" the rights, whilst engaging with a greater number of local companies.

Its not just a swipe at Trinity, but at any club that resorts to such a tactic. It shows poor commercial acumen that a club can't establish a value for one of its most important properties that someone is willing to pay for. Much like cheap tickets, the raffling off of sponsorship cheapens the value of the asset. Why would a sponsor pay a market rate for something when they "can take a punt" for a fraction of it? Are you saying that it's a "sign of success" that a club's stadium naming rights are seen as a "bonus", rather than something valuable? You can't convince me that raffle tickets was Wakefield's 'Plan A' - it was almost certainly a panic tactic when they couldn't get the true value of the sponsorship. I think the is more apt here.

As for the cheap tickets, you are correct. However, the catalyst to this was the threat of expulsion for clubs not reaching the RFL target of 10,000 attendances and the effects of this are still being felt at clubs like Huddersfield that can no longer sell their tickets at full price.
Cheap tickets are utterly counter productive and they cheapen the product.

So we agree that the clubs are the issue, taking the easy way out to cheapen the sport because actually going out and marketing themselves sounds too much like hard work?

Re: Hemel New York : Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:54 am  

robinrovers10 wrote:

If Sky were to pull the plug on the money, in order to keep the game proffesional they would be some mergers to boost the attendances so only Sponsorship and turnstyle money is used to pay wages. Imagine the following Super League.

Greater Manchester Marauders (Leigh, Swinton, Oldham, Salford)
Wakefield Rovers (Wakey & Featherstone)
West Yorkshire Steelers (Hudds, Halifax, Bradford & Keighley)
Yorkshire Exiles (Batley, Dewsbury, Donny, Sheffield, Hunslet & York)
Northern Charge (Whitehaven, Workington, Barrow & Newcastle Thunder)
Combined French XIII (Catalans, Toulouse and rest of France)

Added to teams who could elf sustain due to larger crowds and long term backers in:-


St Helens
Leeds
Hull KR
Wigan
Hull FC
Leeds
Warrington

It would never happen but would be interesting if it did!!!!!

No Cas ! & currently pulling an average of 8k + !!!

Re: Hemel New York : Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:07 am  

bramleyrhino wrote:

This is the point I take real issue with, because to argue that the RFL are "distracted by overseas clubs" and "neglecting the heartlands" reinforces two very dangerous assumptions.

1. That the RFL is providing undue support to expansion clubs (be that financial or other resources) when there's more than enough evidence from failed expansion efforts to suggest that isn't the case.

Utter poppycock !!!
Catalans were invited 'direct entry' to SL *at least TW had to work their way through the league's*.
Catalans were given a 3 year dispensation *against relegation* on inception to SL when promotion/relegation was still in force *that is protectionism*
Catalans were 'guaranteed' a SL Licence when 'Licensing' was announced approaching the end of Catalans 3 Year Exemption from relegation *IIRC Catalans were in a very low league position at that time* ? Moving the goal posts to protect Catalans ?

London in all their various guises & business names have been helped by the RFL & they have failed as a business more often than a corner shop !

TW have exemptions afforded left right & centre !

Wales had exemptions & carried antipodeans who didn't even have working visas !!! They had exemptions on numbers of overseas players !

The RFL bought Bradfords Odsal Stadium to stop them going bankrupt & lease it back at peppercorn rates !

The RFL deducted only 6 points from Wigan for breaking the Salary Cap by over £225k during Stuart Fielden Gate ! Thereby saving them from relegation !!!

The RFL gave Wigan their 2 points back after they broke the Salary Cap for the 3rd time in the SL era !!!

So, Wigan & Bradford are not expansion Clubs but Catalan, TW & London are !!!

Now tell me again how the RFL do not bend over backwards to afford expansion clubs more assistance than any heartland club ?
The RFL are not fit for purpose at best, downright corrupt in reality !

& don't get me onto the current SL hierarchy who are Hell bent on taking more & more cash back from lower divisions to feed & sustain SL which is failing !

Re: Hemel New York : Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:48 am  

I'd say there are finally signs that some SL clubs have realised that they need to try to reverse the decline in the game.

IMO Leeds have been one of the worst offenders, content to let the cap fall in real terms because we were still winning. They finally started making changes with marquee signings and revamping the youth setup, but it will take years to turn around on the field.

If the bigger clubs can start pulling their weight it will help everyone. Personally I find it a bit crazy to blame smaller clubs for the state of the game as a whole.

Re: Hemel New York : Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:17 pm  

Call Me God wrote:

My Irony meter has just exploded......after 2 decades of "London don't deserve a spot.....poor Keighley", the one time we do earn the spot and we shouldn't be there?
That Round 1 defeat still hurting?

Not at all (well maybe a little)

The point is that both Toronto and Toulouse were invited into the comp knowing that they needed to be in SL to make it worth their while.
Certainly in Toronto's case, it's so far from being a viable option in league 1, they simply had to gain promotion to The Championship and beyond and whilst the situation financially may not be quite so bad for Toulouse, they too, rejoined the comp to be playing SL rugby and as we "had" to have a restructure and in view of the "endless additional commercial opportunities" of having these sides in SL, why the hell weren't they included in a revised 14 club top flight ?? a truly baffling decision.

As stated, I still dont believe that N. American clubs should be playing in "our" competition but, there is little point in them "languishing" in the lower leagues.

As for Toulouse, again, they didn't make a comeback to be playing lower league rugby and maybe we could have seen whether their inclusion would both, add something to the comp and improve the strength of the French national side, although I believe that they have fallen so far behind Australia, New Zealand and England that they are never likely to get anywhere near close - at least not in the next 20/30 years.

There's been a lot of B.S. about TV deals etc for these expansion clubs and what "they will bring to the game" but, surely "we" had a great chance to prove it, one way or another.

As for London, great, they are having an excellent season but, when folk talk about expanding the game, perhaps they should look at London's plight and just how long it took for them to produce any of their own players.

FWIW I still expect London to get dragged into the relegation battle but, good luck with the season.

We were sat a couple of seats away from Mr Hughes and hid lad when London played Toulouse in France, when a howler by the ref cost Toulouse a point, with the game ending in a draw.

Re: Hemel New York : Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:18 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Not at all (well maybe a little)

The point is that both Toronto and Toulouse were invited into the comp knowing that they needed to be in SL to make it worth their while.
Certainly in Toronto's case, it's so far from being a viable option in league 1, they simply had to gain promotion to The Championship and beyond and whilst the situation financially may not be quite so bad for Toulouse, they too, rejoined the comp to be playing SL rugby and as we "had" to have a restructure and in view of the "endless additional commercial opportunities" of having these sides in SL, why the hell weren't they included in a revised 14 club top flight ?? a truly baffling decision.

As stated, I still dont believe that N. American clubs should be playing in "our" competition but, there is little point in them "languishing" in the lower leagues.

As for Toulouse, again, they didn't make a comeback to be playing lower league rugby and maybe we could have seen whether their inclusion would both, add something to the comp and improve the strength of the French national side, although I believe that they have fallen so far behind Australia, New Zealand and England that they are never likely to get anywhere near close - at least not in the next 20/30 years.

There's been a lot of B.S. about TV deals etc for these expansion clubs and what "they will bring to the game" but, surely "we" had a great chance to prove it, one way or another.

As for London, great, they are having an excellent season but, when folk talk about expanding the game, perhaps they should look at London's plight and just how long it took for them to produce any of their own players.

FWIW I still expect London to get dragged into the relegation battle but, good luck with the season.

We were sat a couple of seats away from Mr Hughes and hid lad when London played Toulouse in France, when a howler by the ref cost Toulouse a point, with the game ending in a draw.

“Our competetion”? Since when was SL, Wakefield’s competetion? You are here by default. Or were you being xenophobic?