Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:08 pm  

Mr Dog wrote:

Of the current SL teams the only one that may possibly survive in a truly global, or even northern hemisphere league would be Leeds. Towns such as Wigan, Warrington and St Helens would be of no interest to NA TV.

The Warriors, Wolves and Saints would though.

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:08 pm  

j.c wrote:

They'll go with the same clubs they have now, and English rugbyleague will once again fall further behind the NRL and union, and unfortunately we will then fall behind North America once their clubs have established themselves and the same fools that post on forums like this will still blame wakey fev and halifax etc

Why will we fall behind? Why is the mindset that everything the sport tries is doomed to failure?

And let's not beat about the bush here. The sport is in this position because there are certain clubs that aren't marketing themselves well enough, that aren't growing revenue, that aren't developing travel, that aren't raising standards and aren't reaching new audiences. These are the very same clubs that are voting for things like a £1m real-terms pay-cut to our talent since 1999, which makes it harder for those clubs that do develop, grow and market themselves to keep their talent and progress.

Can you blame them for wanting to look elsewhere?

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:10 pm  

bramleyrhino wrote:

We need to get away from this mindset that clubs can only market to their postcode.

There is no reason why Wigan cannot draw support from the wider Greater Manchester area. That's an area of 2.8m people - roughly the population of Chicago.

There is no reason why St Helens cannot draw support from the Liverpool City region - an area with a population that is similar in size to Philadelphia.

The population of Leeds alone is comparable to cities like San Francisco and Seattle and there is no reason why Warrington couldn't market itself as a team for Chesire - an area with more people living there than Boston and Atlanta put together. These are serious markets, if the clubs themselves can position themselves in that way. If US TV audiences are interested in a tiny little village in Wisconsin, then why wouldn't they be interested in what we can offer if the product is right?.

Bit of questionable comparisons going on there. Comparing the population of a county in U.K. to just a city in the USA. What are the populations of Georgia, Massachusetts, Washington and Illinois instead of just making it sound like American teams only get their fans from the city and not the whole State it's located.

Green Bay might only have relative small population but what's the population of Wisconsin and how many other NFL teams do they have there?

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:17 pm  

PrinterThe wrote:

Bit of questionable comparisons going on there. Comparing the population of a county in U.K. to just a city in the USA. What are the populations of Georgia, Massachusetts, Washington and Illinois instead of just making it sound like American teams only get their fans from the city and not the whole State it's located.

I still think it's a relevant argument. If Wigan Warriors can position themselves as a team for "Greater Manchester", or Saints position themselves as a team "for Merseyside", then that is a market that is comparable to what the American's have. People are saying that this won't work because Wigan is a small town and the Yanks won't be interested in that. But if Wigan can position themselves as a club that speaks to a market that includes one of the UK's biggest financial, creative and legal hubs outside London, that arguably is a market that Americans are likely to be interested in.

We're not talking about getting 2m Liverpudlians clamouring for tickets to the Totally Wicked, but what we should be aiming for is generating a basis of interest in 'St Helens' (or 'Saints') across that region. TV is arguably more important here, and St Helens can market themselves in a way that raises TV interest across the Liverpool City Region, that makes us more attractive to TV not just in North America, but in the UK as well,

Is that realistic? I'd say so. St Helens is 20 minutes from Liverpool Lime Street - there's no reason why a club shouldn't be engaging with potential audiences a 20 minute train ride away.

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:24 pm  

bramleyrhino wrote:

I still think it's a relevant argument. If Wigan Warriors can position themselves as a team for "Greater Manchester", or Saints position themselves as a team "for Merseyside", then that is a market that is comparable to what the American's have.

It's not when you look at the population of Illinois (almost 13m) compared to Greater Manchester instead of just using the population of Chicago.

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:40 pm  

PrinterThe wrote:

It's not when you look at the population of Illinois (almost 13m) compared to Greater Manchester instead of just using the population of Chicago.

I get that the scales are different, but that's the nature of comparing the US and UK in many respects. London is the only world city that we offer, and that comes in at around 8m.

But if we're looking for reasons why this wouldn't work and coming up with an argument that an American media market wouldn't be interested in a small town called Wigan that to be honest, that's fine. Firstly, because there is no excuse for a club not to be marketing beyond their postcode anyway. Secondly, because I still think it's a sizable market to offer, even if it isn't quite large enough to attract NFL TV rights. And I'd also point out that this isn't just about raising interest in the US - we should be doing this because it appeals to TV audiences here.

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:17 am  

bramleyrhino wrote:

I still think it's a relevant argument. If Wigan Warriors can position themselves as a team for "Greater Manchester", or Saints position themselves as a team "for Merseyside", then that is a market that is comparable to what the American's have. People are saying that this won't work because Wigan is a small town and the Yanks won't be interested in that. But if Wigan can position themselves as a club that speaks to a market that includes one of the UK's biggest financial, creative and legal hubs outside London, that arguably is a market that Americans are likely to be interested in.

We're not talking about getting 2m Liverpudlians clamouring for tickets to the Totally Wicked, but what we should be aiming for is generating a basis of interest in 'St Helens' (or 'Saints') across that region. TV is arguably more important here, and St Helens can market themselves in a way that raises TV interest across the Liverpool City Region, that makes us more attractive to TV not just in North America, but in the UK as well,

Is that realistic? I'd say so. St Helens is 20 minutes from Liverpool Lime Street - there's no reason why a club shouldn't be engaging with potential audiences a 20 minute train ride away.

Whilst I agree in principle. Wouldn't both clubs have to change there name?

People in Manchester /Liverpool wouldn't be interested at the moment, because they would view them as part of them towns. And nothing to do with there respective cities. And there in lies one of the problems.
Trying to stretch the audience is good, but in the end only people who already know about the sport, or are connected to a town with a club really care. And this is due to bad marketing/promoting by everybody.

Both those clubs you mention would stand a better chance of being known should RL take off over the pond. Due to there histories and respective success.

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:44 am  

North American teams will never get involved in a serious way unless franchising is included. P&R is not going to get any serious investors, sponsors or TV companies from overseas interested in putting serious cash into the sport. Like it or not these people will only spend money to make money, which will require certainty for more than a year (probably 3-5 minimum).

It might all end up not happening, but to be held back on the basis of away fans or some nebulous concept of grass roots support (which the sport as a whole has failed at miserably developing over the last 40 years) is to effectively doom the sport to continue its current death-spiral IMO.

What we absolutely need is real commercial nous in moving forward. No Koukash-esque promises of future investment should be accepted before allowing even Toronto into SL, but credible, warrantied commitments, and people who understand that whilst the North American teams might bring huge value to the game, they'd have nothing without it.

What I absolutely agree needs to happen as well is if through franchising we effectively freeze teams out of SL that there is either a genuine process to consider them in the future, or at the very least decent funding to enable a second tier competition to survive and thrive.

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:04 am  

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

What we absolutely need is real commercial nous in moving forward.

stone dead killed any approach from any "backer" currently in the mix........too many clubs think the SKY 1.8 million is the answer.......it's not!

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:31 am  

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

North American teams will never get involved in a serious way unless franchising is included. P&R is not going to get any serious investors, sponsors or TV companies from overseas interested in putting serious cash into the sport. Like it or not these people will only spend money to make money, which will require certainty for more than a year (probably 3-5 minimum).

It might all end up not happening, but to be held back on the basis of away fans or some nebulous concept of grass roots support (which the sport as a whole has failed at miserably developing over the last 40 years) is to effectively doom the sport to continue its current death-spiral IMO.

What we absolutely need is real commercial nous in moving forward. No Koukash-esque promises of future investment should be accepted before allowing even Toronto into SL, but credible, warrantied commitments, and people who understand that whilst the North American teams might bring huge value to the game, they'd have nothing without it.

What I absolutely agree needs to happen as well is if through franchising we effectively freeze teams out of SL that there is either a genuine process to consider them in the future, or at the very least decent funding to enable a second tier competition to survive and thrive.

I agree about the grass roots. All clubs should hang there heads about this. I never understood why barla clubs should not be connected to local professional clubs. The clubs should be promoting there games, build arrangements with regards season tickets (ie a choice of prices, pay more and get free entry to a Barla club of your choice, the extra going to the Barla club etc). Put there merchandise on sale as well at club shops. Just promote them (but then again I go to Barla games especially any Hull club, when I can. So I'm biased). A strong professional sport needs strong grassroots. Look at Football. And I would also make it compulsory that all SL sides and aspiring SL sides must have a reserve team.
The only thing I'd say about away crowds (which I do feel is necessary). Is would we be as attractive to TV companies if there's none, only rows of empty seats/terracing?

How do you make the championship survive during Franchising?
They've effectively got nothing to play for. And it's hard to promote/market the clubs if your effectively saying no matter what happens this season, we'll be in exactly the same spot next year, the year after.
Same with SL, if there's nothing to worry about, less games that have meaning. Marketing becomes harder. And we've seen how lazy clubs are when there futures are safe.

In my opinion p&R is essential.