Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:44 am  

P&R is only essential for a few clubs that are yo-yoing about. Most semi-pro cubs have no ambitions to get into SL, and if they did its not so much empty seats that would be the problem but tiny, ancient stadia and getting smashed on the field every week. Lets not pretend that promotion to SL is a realistic prospect for a number of CHampionship clubs. If your argument was right, how have the likes of Batley survived at all?

I'd have no problem with providing a credible pathway for clubs to enter SL in a franchising world. But whilst that would require a firm commitment from SL to allow Championship teams to get in, it also has to be based on proper criteria for entrance - financial stability, stadium quality etc.

Too often the options we look at are a zero-sum game - take money from SL and give to Championship etc. But the real aim should be to expand the pot for everyone. That means more money to spend on everything. If clubs are relying on away fans for survival, then they deserve to die.

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:32 am  

North American teams will never get involved in a serious way unless franchising is included. P&R is not going to get any serious investors, sponsors or TV companies from overseas interested in putting serious cash into the sport. Like it or not these people will only spend money to make money, which will require certainty for more than a year (probably 3-5 minimum).

Football and RU have P&R and they seem to get wealthy backers including Yanks.

Do wealthy owners of football clubs outside the Premier league make money? Do owners of Premier league teams even make money?

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:33 am  

Why would there be rows of empty terracing? The expectation should be on the clubs to fill that space with locals, who provide much more financial value to the club.

Away fans have a value, but this idea that they should be the determining factor as to whether the sport expands or not is ridiculous.

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:39 am  

Away fans have a value, but this idea that they should be the determining factor as to whether the sport expands or not is ridiculous.

Differing sports have different profiles. RL teams are relatively closely located and as such maybe there has been a reliance on any fans due to limited travel distance. If we expand the sport geographically then this is a shift in the DNA of the sport that maybe needs to be factored in. It's a consideration if not a determining factor.

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:12 am  

wire-quin wrote:

Differing sports have different profiles. RL teams are relatively closely located and as such maybe there has been a reliance on any fans due to limited travel distance. If we expand the sport geographically then this is a shift in the DNA of the sport that maybe needs to be factored in. It's a consideration if not a determining factor.

If that means that the game branches out to new audience, I think it's a price worth paying. We already see a lot of opposition to the Magic Weekend which is based on little more than "I don't want to pay the train fare to Newcastle", or opposition to England games at Wembley based on "the hotels are a bit expensive".

And let's be honest here, away support is not as big a revenue stream as people make it out to be. Purely anecdotally, the away following of supporters from many clubs to Headingley in recent years is massively exaggerated. Hosting Leeds or Wigan might be a big pay day for Huddersfield or Salford, but it's a blip on the radar at the bigger clubs. Leeds probably generate more revenue selling lattes to students in a week than they do selling tickets to supporters of about half of the clubs in Super League.

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:33 am  

Given the oft-stated opinion that the UK SL quality player pool isn't big enough to expand to a 14 club SL, how is it intended to populate the North American teams, in the 'short' term, (say 20 years) until they develop their own talent?

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:01 am  

bramleyrhino wrote:

Leeds probably generate more revenue selling lattes to students in a week than they do selling tickets to supporters of about half of the clubs in Super League.

To be fair those Latte's are pretty good and the food in the cafe is lovely! One of the best things Leeds did was link up with Leeds Beckett. The students use the facilities during the week for lectures and staff use it for meetings etc. All of who pretty much buy something there. Good facility management is that! Unfortunately I graduated 2 years ago and I miss those Thursday's at the stadium

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:02 am  

Sports fans love to follow their team home and away - they want their weekly fix of live sports action. Like it or not, the typical UK RL fan isn't a wealthy individual, and additional travel costs are an important factor when deciding whether to go to a game or not. International travel would make this far worse, although a lot of fans do build in a trip to France into their annual holiday plans.

Expansion to other parts of the UK hasn't been historically been successful at attracting local folk to attend games there. It's easy to say that it's down to inadequate marketing, but all businesses by necessity have a cap on their marketing budget and there's a limit to what can be done. Plus, if the locals aren't interested, then they're never going to become regular attendees. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink, and even if you could make it drink, you can't make it like it.

If we shift emphasis to TV too much, the danger is that crowd figures could start to tumble. If a good selection of games are on TV, then why would anyone without an existing allegiance to a team spend the time and money to go to a live game, other than maybe out of curiosity or just for a change very occasionally. Due to the likes of Sky, sports followers in the UK have become channel-hoppers. Fewer people (other than fans of one of the teams involved) sit down and watch an 80/90 minute game end-to-end. If it's a one-sided or boring affair, they'll flick to other channels and watch a bit of golf, RU, darts, snooker, etc. and they'll likely do the same when the adverts come on at half-time. They may, or may not, return to watch the 2nd half depending on what else they find to watch.

I'll agree that all clubs need to do to market themselves better, both within and potentially outside their postcode area, but I think you'll find that most clubs are trying to do this. With a limited budget, it's always going to be very difficult though. This is where the likes of Toronto, and probably New York if that happens, have the advantage of large slugs of money from their owners for marketing purposes.

TV deals are important, but could be counter-productive if overdone. Success in RL has generally been with the help of rich individual investors, and how we attract more of them to the game is perhaps the golden nugget that we need to find?

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:46 pm  

HXSparky wrote:

Sports fans love to follow their team home and away - they want their weekly fix of live sports action. Like it or not, the typical UK RL fan isn't a wealthy individual, and additional travel costs are an important factor when deciding whether to go to a game or not. International travel would make this far worse, although a lot of fans do build in a trip to France into their annual holiday plans.

Expansion to other parts of the UK hasn't been historically been successful at attracting local folk to attend games there. It's easy to say that it's down to inadequate marketing, but all businesses by necessity have a cap on their marketing budget and there's a limit to what can be done. Plus, if the locals aren't interested, then they're never going to become regular attendees. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink, and even if you could make it drink, you can't make it like it.

If we shift emphasis to TV too much, the danger is that crowd figures could start to tumble. If a good selection of games are on TV, then why would anyone without an existing allegiance to a team spend the time and money to go to a live game, other than maybe out of curiosity or just for a change very occasionally. Due to the likes of Sky, sports followers in the UK have become channel-hoppers. Fewer people (other than fans of one of the teams involved) sit down and watch an 80/90 minute game end-to-end. If it's a one-sided or boring affair, they'll flick to other channels and watch a bit of golf, RU, darts, snooker, etc. and they'll likely do the same when the adverts come on at half-time. They may, or may not, return to watch the 2nd half depending on what else they find to watch.

I'll agree that all clubs need to do to market themselves better, both within and potentially outside their postcode area, but I think you'll find that most clubs are trying to do this. With a limited budget, it's always going to be very difficult though. This is where the likes of Toronto, and probably New York if that happens, have the advantage of large slugs of money from their owners for marketing purposes.

TV deals are important, but could be counter-productive if overdone. Success in RL has generally been with the help of rich individual investors, and how we attract more of them to the game is perhaps the golden nugget that we need to find?

Spot on,well said Sparky. Mind you,you'll just get the usual (It has to be my way) Mr Bramleyapple marketing man, saying otherwise.

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:47 pm  

Cokey wrote:

Spot on,well said Sparky. Mind you,you'll just get the usual (It has to be my way) Mr Bramleyapple marketing man, saying otherwise.

They're called opinions Cokey. People are as entitled to one as I am, and people are entitled to call mine out as I am theres. That's how discussion and debate works.

I've said it before that I'm more than happy for anyone who feels that the game can prosper into a commercially successful sport by focusing on the heartlands to explain how they would do that, and convince me why I'm wrong. I'm not stubborn enough to feel that I've got all of the right answers, and I'm willing to listen to and engage in any reasoned argument. Unfortunately, that's the point where some of those people usually go scurrying off to their hidey hole and throw the insults around.

So come on Cokey; if my ideas to help the sport are grow, to attract, develop and retain talent, and to appeal to new audiences, TV broadcasters and sponsors are so wrong, what would you do differently to achieve all that?