Re: Has RL lost its sparkle : Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:11 pm  

bren2k wrote:

I don't doubt that's part of the problem - but a much deeper issue is the parlous state of the grassroots game; junior clubs are run on the goodwill of enthusiastic amateurs, so attracting players and training them properly is a matter of luck and happenstance - and most of them compete in a stupid league structure that eschews player development for a win at all costs mentality that favours competitive dads, but leaves behind small lads, late developers and those with subtle skills that are less useful in an amateur setting, where bash and barge by the freakishly big lads wins the day. Add to that the toxic atmosphere at many junior games, and you have a recipe for a diminished player pool of academy ready young players - with the ones who do make it through often needing to be deprogrammed of all their bad habits and retrained in the basic skills of the modern game.

And that's before we even get to the way the sport has been hijacked by the boring, unedifying tactics of some Aussie coaches - such that we're now in an arms race; the only way to disarm is unilateral, because if one team decides to play fairly and avoid wrestling, slowing down the ruck, begging for penalties and all the other horrid things we can thank Messrs Maguire and Brown for, they'll get battered by the ones who do.

So I'd say that yes, RL is losing its sparkle; it's fixable, but it requires some visionary and transformative leadership at the RFL - which I don't see Ralph Rimmer having either the desire or the ability to deliver.

Most sensible post I have read on here for a long time, Just about hits the problem square on. Just add one fact that everyone seems to miss the dramatic drop in the numbers of kids that are of the age to play. that's down to mine & my kids generation not breeding fast/often enough.

Re: Has RL lost its sparkle : Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:16 pm  

bramleyrhino wrote:

You trott this line out every time this debate comes up, that the fans of big clubs are just nervous or jealous of the smaller clubs, and its garbage. Do you genuinely think that the standard of the league is improving? Do you honestly feel that the game is attracting the same quality of talent? Do you honestly think that the performances of Wakefield and Salford are due to them growing to reach the standards of Leeds and Wigan, rather than using the salary cap to stifle their growth? There are good reasons why clubs like yours have voted to give our players real-terms pay cuts, and it isn't to raise your standards to that of the top clubs.

If you want stats to quantify it, take a look at the RFL website. Last season saw the highest number of errors per game since the RFL started publishing the data in 2004. So as a spectator, I'm paying to watch more error-prone players than I ever have been. That's not a sign of standards improving.

Because it's the truth so it never needs to change - I stopped reading your drivel after that.

Re: Has RL lost its sparkle : Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:12 pm  

vastman wrote:

Because it's the truth so it never needs to change - I stopped reading your drivel after that.

Except it isn't the truth in the slightest. Keep delluding yourself about it, but no Leeds or Wigan fan is nervous about nor jealous of Wakefield.

We have smaller crowds, less amateur talent, less money in the game, less interest from sponsors and broadcasters and we're imposing pay cuts on our players. By any definition, that a race to the bottom and the smaller clubs have been engaging in it for the best part of 20 years - and dragging the top clubs into it is the only way they can keep up with them.

Re: Has RL lost its sparkle : Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:03 am  

bramleyrhino wrote:

Except it isn't the truth in the slightest. Keep delluding yourself about it, but no Leeds or Wigan fan is nervous about nor jealous of Wakefield.

We have smaller crowds, less amateur talent, less money in the game, less interest from sponsors and broadcasters and we're imposing pay cuts on our players. By any definition, that a race to the bottom and the smaller clubs have been engaging in it for the best part of 20 years - and dragging the top clubs into it is the only way they can keep up with them.

Apart from football, most sports are going through similar difficulties, particularly with regard to attracting more youngsters.
Do we need to work harder on the image of the sport, who's only press seems to be players getting arrested or failing drug tests.
SL has for a while been happy to take some of the "bad boys" of the Aussie game and perhaps we should be trying to clean up our act ?
Also, maybe we should be more selective about who gets in front of the camera/ talks to the press & TV.
Everything in the modern world is style over substance and when you look at some of the stuff that has been made popular, it's all about hype.

Re: Has RL lost its sparkle : Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:19 am  

bramleyrhino wrote:

Except it isn't the truth in the slightest. Keep delluding yourself about it, but no Leeds or Wigan fan is nervous about nor jealous of Wakefield.

We have smaller crowds, less amateur talent, less money in the game, less interest from sponsors and broadcasters and we're imposing pay cuts on our players. By any definition, that a race to the bottom and the smaller clubs have been engaging in it for the best part of 20 years - and dragging the top clubs into it is the only way they can keep up with them.

No it's you who've chosen to interpret it that way - I've never said any such thing. The real problem you have and those similar to yourself is that you just don't like people disagreeing with you - it's that simple, you're like spoilt children.

Re: Has RL lost its sparkle : Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:00 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Apart from football, most sports are going through similar difficulties, particularly with regard to attracting more youngsters.

Society is a VERY different place to what it was 20 years ago when Summer rugby was in its infancy. When there are pranksters on YouTube with more followers than the population of the UK, it's kind of telling what youngsters are more interested in these days. Sport must be so far down the list of the social media generation's interests, I'd be surprised if it even registers.

Re: Has RL lost its sparkle : Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:18 am  

vastman wrote:

The real problem you have and those similar to yourself is that you just don't like people disagreeing with you.

Can I interest you in a mirror?

Re: Has RL lost its sparkle : Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:26 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Apart from football, most sports are going through similar difficulties, particularly with regard to attracting more youngsters.
Do we need to work harder on the image of the sport, who's only press seems to be players getting arrested or failing drug tests.
SL has for a while been happy to take some of the "bad boys" of the Aussie game and perhaps we should be trying to clean up our act ?
Also, maybe we should be more selective about who gets in front of the camera/ talks to the press & TV.
Everything in the modern world is style over substance and when you look at some of the stuff that has been made popular, it's all about hype.

I absolutely agree with that. But where I think I'm at odds with some is that I think it is up to each and every club to make an equal contribution to that solution, rather than looking to the RFL to do it, or expecting bigger clubs to run at the pace of the slowest man.

The clubs should be investing in media training, they should be engaging with their communities and community clubs in their area better and they should be thinking much more carefully about whether a player who sticks his appendage into a dog's mouth is the sort of player who should be representing them.

The launch of Super League was all about the word you used - hype. It was about the event, the experience and something that people couldn't get elsewhere. But since then, we've stood still. We haven't progressed, we haven't developed that experience and we haven't tried anything new, because it has been cheaper not to and because it was easier to just let the RFL be the lighting rod. As a result, other sports have overtaken us.

That's the 'race to the bottom' that I talk about, and it's disapointing that some people want to take that observation and see it as an attack on their club. In truth, it's a commentary on any club that has failed to move on from the mid-late 90s, because that's ultimately why the sport is still struggling.

Re: Has RL lost its sparkle : Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:01 pm  

bramleyrhino wrote:

I absolutely agree with that. But where I think I'm at odds with some is that I think it is up to each and every club to make an equal contribution to that solution, rather than looking to the RFL to do it, or expecting bigger clubs to run at the pace of the slowest man.

The clubs should be investing in media training, they should be engaging with their communities and community clubs in their area better and they should be thinking much more carefully about whether a player who sticks his appendage into a dog's mouth is the sort of player who should be representing them.

The launch of Super League was all about the word you used - hype. It was about the event, the experience and something that people couldn't get elsewhere. But since then, we've stood still. We haven't progressed, we haven't developed that experience and we haven't tried anything new, because it has been cheaper not to and because it was easier to just let the RFL be the lighting rod. As a result, other sports have overtaken us.

That's the 'race to the bottom' that I talk about, and it's disapointing that some people want to take that observation and see it as an attack on their club. In truth, it's a commentary on any club that has failed to move on from the mid-late 90s, because that's ultimately why the sport is still struggling.

Whilst the clubs do hold individual responsibility, I dont agree with the race to the bottom and blaming the smaller clubs.
The round ball game seems to cope well enough with having unfashionable clubs in the top flight
When you compare Man U at the top averaging 75000 to Bournemouth 11182 or Burnley 20558
and in RL Leeds with 14418, with Salford 3842 and Widnes 5592 and yet, nobody calls out the smaller Football clubs for "holding the sport back" or a "race to the bottom".
In Football, they embrace the diversity of clubs with their different grounds and history.
Of course, they dont have the salary cap and this is probably where the biggest gripe is from supporters of Wigan and Leeds etc

As I said in a previous post, when you look at some of the crap that people become interested in, it boils down to clever publicity and marketing.
If we doubled the salary cap overnight and jettisoned the clubs with lower attendances, do you really think it would change ANYONE'S perception of the game, would it hell.
Time to stop looking for excuses and focus on the positives of the sport, a game played by the toughest athletes on the planet, a hard fought contact sport, with strength, skill, fitness etc, etc

Dont moan about what we haven't got, promote what we have, it's that simple and stop looking for gimmicks, which rarely last, and have a short, medium and long term plan for the game with some focus on lifting participation numbers at the bottom end 6,7,8 year olds.

Re: Has RL lost its sparkle : Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:47 pm  

Getting rid of the shoulder charge has had a huge negative impact on the game too.

Late, high and from behind shoulder charges were already banned which was correct. However, fair, firm and spectacular to watch shoulder charges should never have been banned. When you think, a player running with the ball can shoulder charge defenders at will but defenders cannot shoulder charge an attacker - that’s just stupid!

It’s taken a lot of excitement of big hits out of the game and is sorely missing!