Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:39 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Sometimes in life you get what you deserve and for all the lying, misleading campaigning (from both sides), "we" probably deserve the mess that we now appear to have.

Who is this "we" you refer to, because, I sure as hell don't, the only people who deserve this mess are those that voted to leave the E.U. & the Tories who gave us the vote, just to placate the right wing so they wouldn't vote UKIP.

wrencat1873 wrote:

At this point we should just take our medicine and get on with life.
We will probably be poorer in the short/medium term but, everyone knew this when the referendum took place.

Spoken like a true "leaver", however, shouldn't that read medium / long term?

As for everyone knowing it was going to be bad initially, that's not true is it, it was going to be glorious from the get-go according to Farage & Co.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:50 am  

The Devil's Advocate wrote:

Who is this "we" you refer to, because, I sure as hell don't, the only people who deserve this mess are those that voted to leave the E.U. & the Tories who gave us the vote, just to placate the right wing so they wouldn't vote UKIP.


Spoken like a true "leaver", however, shouldn't that read medium / long term?

As for everyone knowing it was going to be bad initially, that's not true is it, it was going to be glorious from the get-go according to Farage & Co.

The "we" that I refer to is the voting public, which due to our democratic system is everyone.
As for me being "leaver", get a grip man. I may not be the sharpest tool in the box but, at least I saw the poop storm coming and despite the many flaws within the EU, we are/were still better as part of it.

Regarding everything being bad from the get go, unfortunately, everyone was told that we would be in for an economic shock but the leave brigade said that it was a price worth paying to "take back control".


The saddest irony of all is that a referendum, designed to prevent a split within the Tory party had caused more of a rift since the result and IF Cameron hgad had the balls to tell Farage to go and play with his friends, at least we would have only had 10 years of austerity forced upon us, rather than the crap that is still to come.

Rees Mogg and Boris have moved their fortunes overseas (irony overload) to protect them selves from any economic downturn and yet they still pretend that everything is going to be great.

It's quite sad how the Tory elite have mannaged to convince the working man that they should follow Farage and in this sense, for being so blindingly stupid, "we" get what we deserve.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:32 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

As for me being "leaver", get a grip man.

Ha, ha, I didn't claim you voted leave, however you are chanting their mantra of short term gain for long term gain.

You seem to be at peace with the whole fiasco & happy to move on, I on the other hand, will never get over this right wing coup, who have used the poorest people in the country to facilitate this debacle.

As I have stated before, if we don't stay in the E.U. I hope we end up with a No Deal scenario, because as you say "we" get what "we" deserve.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:38 pm  

Whether we like it or not there was a democratic vote - lies were spouted on both sides leading up to the vote and the leave campaign provided a marginally more compelling argument.

If the vote is overturned it will have significant impact on the "democratic" process. The idea that because the politicians don't like the outcome means they can circumnavigate/manipulate the result to get their way is a dangerous situation. It makes the UK akin to the despots in Africa who refuse to accept the democratic process.

What happens when the next general election doesn't go the right way do the politicians simply ignore the result?

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:10 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Whether we like it or not there was a democratic vote - lies were spouted on both sides leading up to the vote and the leave campaign provided a marginally more compelling argument.

If the vote is overturned it will have significant impact on the "democratic" process. The idea that because the politicians don't like the outcome means they can circumnavigate/manipulate the result to get their way is a dangerous situation. It makes the UK akin to the despots in Africa who refuse to accept the democratic process.

What happens when the next general election doesn't go the right way do the politicians simply ignore the result?

I take it by your comment thatb you are happy with the proposed deal ?

As a Leave voter, is it what you wanted/expected ?


Also just getting back to the democratic vote.
In a general election, if/when a party doesnt stay fairly close to their manifesto or, is found to have badly misled the electorate, there can be a vote of no confidence or, another general election.
With this situation, there is no going back, certainly not for a couple of generations (at least) and you could argue that throught the democratic process (ie Parliament), the lies and deliberate misleading of the public (remember the #350 million a week), political scrutiny has actually found holes in the srguement.
Therefore, should we trust the elected members to "do the right thing" and vote the deal down or, expect them to "carry out the will of the people" ?

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:04 pm  

May will lose the commons vote, she won’t call an election but will go to a second referendum.

1. Her negotiated deal.
2. Leave with no deal.
3. Remain.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:26 pm  

Well, I'd never heard Tony Benn's views on the EU until today.

Always admired him.

Seriously though, he puts it far better than anyone in the Leave campaign ever did. If his speeches had formed part of the campaign we'd have won 80/20.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:22 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I take it by your comment thatb you are happy with the proposed deal ?

As a Leave voter, is it what you wanted/expected ?


Also just getting back to the democratic vote.
In a general election, if/when a party doesnt stay fairly close to their manifesto or, is found to have badly misled the electorate, there can be a vote of no confidence or, another general election.
With this situation, there is no going back, certainly not for a couple of generations (at least) and you could argue that throught the democratic process (ie Parliament), the lies and deliberate misleading of the public (remember the #350 million a week), political scrutiny has actually found holes in the srguement.
Therefore, should we trust the elected members to "do the right thing" and vote the deal down or, expect them to "carry out the will of the people" ?

As a leave voted I expected no deal - I could see no way we could have our cake and eat it. Whilst I expected short term pain I did think there were far more long-term benefits.

Are you seriously suggesting that if we left and we went back to Europe in 10 years time they wouldn't have us back?

There were lies and deliberate misleading statements on both sides - you seem to have memory loss on Osborne's the economy will tank immediately and taxes will need to rise significantly immediately.

Your view of trusting the elected members would work if the elected members represented the balance of the vote but as we both know it doesn't so it would work for remainers but doesn't represent the vote. Its like saying the country voted for a Tory government but the elected members decide Labour should form the government.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:54 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

As a leave voted I expected no deal - I could see no way we could have our cake and eat it. Whilst I expected short term pain I did think there were far more long-term benefits.

Are you seriously suggesting that if we left and we went back to Europe in 10 years time they wouldn't have us back?

Interesting stuff.

IF we wanted to go back, like you, I'm sure that a way could be found for the UK to re-join the EU but, the terms of our re-entry would be without doubt far worse than we have now.

I'm still surprised that, despite the size and historical strength of our ecconomy, people still want to have us withdraw to our small island(s) and
"take the world on" by ourselves

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:15 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Interesting stuff.

IF we wanted to go back, like you, I'm sure that a way could be found for the UK to re-join the EU but, the terms of our re-entry would be without doubt far worse than we have now.

I'm still surprised that, despite the size and historical strength of our ecconomy, people still want to have us withdraw to our small island(s) and
"take the world on" by ourselves

If we stay in our deal will only get worse especially if the EU continues to add countries who extract rather than input funds into the EU.

There are plenty of countries that prosper economically that are outside of the EU. I don't understand why with our current platform - yes we are in the EU - we cannot prosper also outside of the EU. Let's be honest the EU has to sell its product somewhere and we buy quite a lot. Not sure BMW/Mercedes are going to be easily able to replace our volumes elsewhere.