Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:38 am  

Dally wrote:

It is very simple. People voted to leave the EU. That was followed by a General Election in which the two parties receiving the overwhelming majority of votes cast stood on manifestos stating they would honour the referendum result. So, any daft so called People's Vote should not include a 'remain' option without first holding a general election where at least one major party stands on a Remain ticket and wins.

The general election resulted in a hung parliament, which required a coalition government to form. If anything, that was a mandate to have a cross party brexit group negotiating with the EU and taking a deal back to the house, not just a tory brexit.

If there is a second vote (doubtful), then remain absolutely should be one of the options. You have the right to not choose it.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:16 am  

I have mixed feelings about a 2nd vote, for all the reasons that plenty of other people do; but Caroline Lucas' argument is quite persuasive - the stupid, arrogant binary choice that was offered 2 years ago contained none of the nuance that has now become clear and obvious, so a 2nd vote based on the information that is now readily available to everyone could be a way forward. One wonders why the ardent Brexiteers are so afraid of that, given their constant refrain that people "just want them to get on with it."

For me, if it did happen, it would need to be significantly more sophisticated than the first attempt; 3 options - Remain, the Government's Deal, or No Deal, and if there is no super-majority for any, the least popular would be eliminated, and a second round held to decide between the remaining options.

The problem with all of that of course, is that the people campaigning to influence public opinion are liars, charlatans and shysters, and the MSM in this country allows and enables that due to inherent bias and/or a ridiculous approach to 'balance,' which allows any swivel-eyed lunatic with an opposing view to be given a platform, unchallenged, regardless of the veracity of their information.

Whatever happens, all this talk of uniting the country and healing the rifts caused by Brexit are pie in the sky; too many people were promised too many things by other people who knew full well they weren't possible - so now there is a great swathe of the electorate who will see any deviation from those false promises, as a betrayal of their original vote.

Meanwhile, the country burns whilst we pi$$ about, spectating the jolly japes of a group of Eton educated sociopaths, who will never suffer any of the consequences of their actions.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:28 pm  

The problem with a second ballot is that most people wont trust it to be the last. If the remain campaign don't get what they want what happens then?

The vote should be a simple remain or leave with no deal simple - as long as at that point if the vote is to leave those that want to remain accept the result and we get on with it.

It is obvious if you have two versions of leave you will be splitting the leave vote something not lost on the remain side. If you want to do that then you need to add them together and if combined they are greater than the remain figure then the highest of the two leave options is the one we take.

Personally I think the EU will come to the party and they will make sufficient concessions to the back stop to get the deal through.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:34 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The problem with a second ballot is that most people wont trust it to be the last. If the remain campaign don't get what they want what happens then?

The vote should be a simple remain or leave with no deal simple - as long as at that point if the vote is to leave those that want to remain accept the result and we get on with it.

It is obvious if you have two versions of leave you will be splitting the leave vote something not lost on the remain side. If you want to do that then you need to add them together and if combined they are greater than the remain figure then the highest of the two leave options is the one we take.

Personally I think the EU will come to the party and they will make sufficient concessions to the back stop to get the deal through.

The backstop may not be the only issue that is sppoking the Tory MP's.

We already know that many of the MP's wanted to remain and they will find any excuse to scupper the deal.
Those on the right of the party, will say the deal doesn't go far enough and those on the left of the party will always say that it goes too far.
The key to any leave vote is actually those MP's in the Labour party who want to leave joining forces with the Tories and right now, this doesn't look like it can happen.

Therefore, with Corby's eyes solely on gaining power in the UK, with zero regard for Brexit, a deal looks very, very unlikely and we may well crash out with no deal (under WTO terms). Bliss.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:00 pm  

I'm sure it has already been said but I will say it once again. If there is a second vote with remain as an option how will we ever trust the principal of democracy ever again? Have a vote, if we don't get the result we want we will have another just makes a mockery of a right that was hard fought for.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:37 pm  

Trevork52 wrote:

I'm sure it has already been said but I will say it once again. If there is a second vote with remain as an option how will we ever trust the principal of democracy ever again? Have a vote, if we don't get the result we want we will have another just makes a mockery of a right that was hard fought for.

How will we trust the principle of democracy if the result of a campaign proven to have broken electoral law over spending is allowed to stand?

How can we trust the principle of democracy if democratically elected MPs vote for something that is likely to be better for their careers than better for the country?

How can we trust the principle of democracy if people aren't allowed to change their minds? Many Leave tories not seeing the irony of wanting to revisit the idea of May being PM, after voting her in in 2016...

How can we trust the principle of democracy if people aren't allowed a vote on a question of more clarity? If the will of the people is to leave with No Deal, or whatever is on the table, that will be the result of any second referendum.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:30 pm  

When does the NHS start getting its extra 350m per week?

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:57 pm  

Trevork52 wrote:

I'm sure it has already been said but I will say it once again. If there is a second vote with remain as an option how will we ever trust the principal of democracy ever again? Have a vote, if we don't get the result we want we will have another just makes a mockery of a right that was hard fought for.

As somebody said on Question Time last night, for the majority the Leave vote was an expression of anger against the status quo; against rapid and enormous immigration, against disruptive changes in their communities, against stretched public services and housing, against what they experience in their day-to-day lives, against never having a voice against all of this. And yes - although I suspect to a lesser extent in reality - for regaining sovereignty, regaining the money sent to Brussels, etc.

Now, imagine the anger if self-serving game-playing politicians - who, incidentally, have ALL promised to 'respect' the referendum - force an about-turn and keep us in the EU? I'm not even talking about civil unrest, of which there would be plenty. I'm talking about the electorate.

UKIP would be back. All they need is a simple message of 'Labour and the Conservatives betrayed you' targeting 17 million extremely p*ssed off voters looking for some way of lashing out. I suspect Farage would return and I guarantee every one of the 3.8M who voted UKIP in 2015 would go straight back to them. A few million more in a disruptive election and they could easily be in opposition. In all honesty I would even consider it as a 'f*ck you', though not if Yaxley-Lennon was involved.

A successful Remain strategy could very easily see the far Right make massive gains in Westminster. Be careful what you wish for...

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:05 am  

When I read threats like that I Hope May just says “love it, we’re remaining.”

The status quo, ffs.

You’ve been lied to.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:07 am  

LeythIg wrote:

How can we trust the principle of democracy if democratically elected MPs vote for something that is likely to be better for their careers than better for the country?

NAIL ON HEAD

Could you be refering to Boris, staunch remainer, until he saw his chance for the top job, only to be stabbed in the back by Gove.
Could you mean Corbyn, who pretends that he wants to remain but, really wants to leave but, dearen't say anything because he wants the top job.
Could it be Gove, Rees-Mogg and the rest of their gang, who just want a more right wing, look after the privelaged, country.

I detest Farage but, I think that his motives were probably the most honest of all.
He's wanted us out of the EU all along, at any price and its the "at any price" issue which is wrong but, at least he has been consistent.