Re: Safeism : Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:08 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

Not aimed at anyone in particular, but I understand why people dislike out of touch liberal elites with their tofu and courgettes and avocados and hypocrisies. What I struggle to follow though is the embrace of Johnson or Rees-Mogg as champions of decency or normalcy or competency.

It's doublethink, pure and simple. It was perfectly summed up yesterday by twitter rent-a-gob, Darren Grimes.

It’s 10 years since bigotgate. It exposed much. Concern about community, nationhood and the impact of immigration was dismissed as swivel-eyed bigotry by our New Labour elites. It would bring Brown’s coronation and New Labour’s technocratic and Oxbridge-class rule to a swift end.

Note how he makes a point of tagging on 'elites' and 'Oxbridge-class rule' to make it sound like it's a bad thing on Labour's part.

Now, let's list the next 3 Conservative prime-ministers after Gordon Brown. These are the same 3 prime-ministers who plonkers like Darren Grimes cheerleads for...

David Cameron: Eton & Oxford
Theresa May: Oxford
Boris Johnson: Eton & Oxford

[Mild Rover]

Re: Safeism : Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:12 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The Tories have got win northern votes - this is a no brainer - even a soft left Labour will attack the elitist nature of the Tories and something will have to give.

It will be different but at a higher level of debate - I am not trying to be elitist but I guarantee the level of debate in my household will be on a different level to that of the majority of kids attending public sector education. I really valued education as a platform for my children for their adult life and that didn't just mean the 3Rs - it was about challenging their thought processes and how they engage with the people around them. If you appreciate classical music or classical writing or travel it must enhance your existence and what you can offer in debate. Likewise if you like sport or economics etc. this diversity breeds development of ideas and if you have a better way of expressing it so much the better

I agree, and it is how best to develop that for as many people as possible.

I was thinking of putting something about education in the New Sides thread, because it seems like an obvious win across the political spectrum. While we all want to level up the education rather than drag the best performers down, I’m not sure a structure I’d regard as being the pinnacle to aim for exists yet, in the UK at least.

It is very difficult to think about ‘success’ without prejudice and snobbery of one type or another. As my own attitude towards the Daily Star demonstrated to me the other day. And, tbh, my attitude towards Harrow, Eton etc. Fine line between being discriminating and discriminatory sometimes!

Re: Safeism : Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:26 pm  

What do you all mean by education? The study and respect of all things or how to present yourself in a difficult moment by reciting facts or evidence or charm? I've studied a hell of a lot over the years, mainly due to a change in career but do I feel enlightened or enriched? No not really, that came when I read the classics on my night shifts back in the day. Do I know my stuff for my job - a qualified yes - but a well presented confident person who doesn't know the job to my level would easily trump me due to the attributes obtained from a private education. Are these type of people suitable to run a company or the country? In my opinion no, the cycle needs to be broken.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Safeism : Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:47 pm  

King Street Cat wrote:

It's doublethink, pure and simple. It was perfectly summed up yesterday by twitter rent-a-gob, Darren Grimes.

I wonder if, where Blair and Cameron extended their parties’ appeal in an effort to claim the middle, the fringes have found common cause by turning on the middle - creating some unlikely alliances. It is a powerful, and potentially even refreshing, force but one that will be difficult direct when ‘normal’ politics comes out of lockdown.

Re: Safeism : Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:45 am  

Mild Rover wrote:

I agree, and it is how best to develop that for as many people as possible.

I was thinking of putting something about education in the New Sides thread, because it seems like an obvious win across the political spectrum. While we all want to level up the education rather than drag the best performers down, I’m not sure a structure I’d regard as being the pinnacle to aim for exists yet, in the UK at least.

It is very difficult to think about ‘success’ without prejudice and snobbery of one type or another. As my own attitude towards the Daily Star demonstrated to me the other day. And, tbh, my attitude towards Harrow, Eton etc. Fine line between being discriminating and discriminatory sometimes!

For public sector education to be a better standard you have to get parents to buy in and support it. Education is like health where ever it is seen as effectively free then it will never be given the gravitas it deserves. Parents take private education seriously because the costs are significant and they expect positive outputs - that doesn't just mean exam results.

I strongly disagree about snobbery - anyone can be successful regardless of upbringing - many use it as an excuse as to why they haven't been successful or climbed the ladder. Yes it might make it easier to get a job in the civil service or with a wine merchant where you can plod along your whole career but out in the private sector the quality of your contribution matters and the reward structure reflects that.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Safeism : Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:33 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

For public sector education to be a better standard you have to get parents to buy in and support it. Education is like health where ever it is seen as effectively free then it will never be given the gravitas it deserves. Parents take private education seriously because the costs are significant and they expect positive outputs - that doesn't just mean exam results.

I strongly disagree about snobbery - anyone can be successful regardless of upbringing - many use it as an excuse as to why they haven't been successful or climbed the ladder. Yes it might make it easier to get a job in the civil service or with a wine merchant where you can plod along your whole career but out in the private sector the quality of your contribution matters and the reward structure reflects that.

Maybe snobbery isn’t quite the right word, but the way we judge value and what we regard as success inevitably reflects our own preferences and prejudices. Sometimes we need to make quick judgements based on limited evidence to get through life, but they often won’t be fair or wise.

I’ve worked in the private sector these last six years and did a year back in the 90s too. I did a few months in the public sector in 2004 and around that I was in academia. Some of the stereotypes on all sides have truth to them. Across all of them I found good, talented people, and success (in terms of progression) among them seems to me to have been largely a function of ambition and right-place-right-time luck. I’m happy to say/admit that, with some ups and downs along the way, I’ve had my share of luck. People who think their success is all down to their own efforts, or that you ‘make your own luck’ I find a bit tiresome, similar to those who think their disappointments are all down to bad luck. There are extreme cases of pure good and bad fortune, but they’re the outliers. You can’t legislate for luck but it is a huge factor.

Re: Safeism : Fri May 01, 2020 6:57 am  

King Street Cat wrote:

It's doublethink, pure and simple. It was perfectly summed up yesterday by twitter rent-a-gob, Darren Grimes.

Note how he makes a point of tagging on 'elites' and 'Oxbridge-class rule' to make it sound like it's a bad thing on Labour's part.

Now, let's list the next 3 Conservative prime-ministers after Gordon Brown. These are the same 3 prime-ministers who plonkers like Darren Grimes cheerleads for...

David Cameron: Eton & Oxford
Theresa May: Oxford
Boris Johnson: Eton & Oxford

Not sure it’s just him - the country votes them in

Re: Safeism : Sat May 09, 2020 6:54 pm  

Private education buys you access to the right people and perpetuates the old boy/old school tie networking that keeps the upper echelons of society in their privileged position. The sooner it is done away with so that every kid gets a fair crack the better. Eton and Harrow would be better purposed educating special needs kids.

Re: Safeism : Sat May 09, 2020 7:23 pm  

The first thing to do is remove their charitable status.