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Re: Brexit watch Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:25 pm  

User avatarhomme vaste wrote:
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wrencat1873 wrote:
You mention pros and cons of being in or out.
With the benefit of 4 years (since the referendum) could you explain what you believe the pros and cons are ?


The pros and cons are quite simple for me Wrencat and as I say, people have different opinions on which outweigh the other but if you was to give a basic overview, and apologies if I miss any key elements but IMO the key pros are;

As I mention in my previous post, when it comes to Sovereignty ultimately we will have more control of our laws and regulations, which is absolutely huge in the grand scheme of things, there is no questioning that what so ever, obviously this then feeds into us not having to accept European policies or laws that are forcefully imposed on us (As they have been in the past) and that we as a country do not agree with or have no benefit to us what so ever.

Trade has huge potential for us, by being a member state of the EU we massively limit ourselves in terms of capitalising on our trade potential with some of the biggest economies in the world; US, Japan etc - Again, our trade deals are set by the single market and we have no control over them what so ever.

Both improved global trade agreements (which I have no doubt we will eventually see) coupled up with a more selective and comprehensive immigration control policy (Again another element we do not have control over with the freedom of movement throughout the EU) will have a really positive effect on our job market and economy as a whole.

IMO we can use the spend on EU membership fees to a lot better effect, the simple point is we pay way more in membership fees to the EU that we could ever wish to get out of the political system, the figure on the big bus £350m a week factually was correct at the time as 2018 we paid 17.4 Billion but did not factor in the rebate of 4.2 billion that we later received from the EU so the true figure for that year was around 13.2 Billion and then you factor in what the EU put back in to our country which is about 4 billion we are left with huge funding gap to basically in my opinion in a lot of cases be told what we can and cannot do on a political level I wont speculate on where than money can be better spent, I am sure we all have our own ideas.

Other points to note when it comes to the pros for me;

- Removal of a lot of bureaucratic red tape, slow processes and governance that EU that is just not needed - I know first hand that this makes can be extremely difficult for businesses, especially SMEs
- EU VAT removal - leaving consumers a lot better off
- Security, obviously as previously mentioned, the ability to have a greater control of our countries borders will no doubt improve domestic security
-

Can I leave the cons to someone to jump in? I am in danger of down playing them on the basis that I have already spent way too long writing this post! To start someone off:

- Loss of EU businesses investing in UK Economy?
- Greater influence over foreign affairs as part of the EU? (Although having a lesser voice)
- Loss of free trade throughout Europe? Implications on potential import taxes etc
- Withdrawal bill?
- Short term disruption

In all honesty, in my honest opinion I think we will see a significant weakening of the EU over the next decade, potentially even a total collapse as countries see the success that Britain will achieve outside of Europe (Once we get past the initial disruption) I have no doubt others will follow in opting to leave the EU.
Re: Brexit watch Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:27 pm  

User avatarhomme vaste wrote:
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Also Wrencat, what has the benefit of the last 4 years actually told us that we did not already know? Maybe outside of this negotiation period being way off the mark.
Re: Brexit watch Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:41 pm  
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homme vaste wrote:
snip


Apologies to you, it was a glib retort to silver2 knowing it would goad the odd Brexiteer to come out of the shadows.

I not suggesting all people who voted to leave are racists, however I'd take a wild guess that most racists voted for Brexit.
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Liam Fox 2017: “The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history.”
Re: Brexit watch Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:59 pm  

User avatarhomme vaste wrote:
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The Devil's Advocate wrote:
Apologies to you, it was a glib retort to silver2 knowing it would goad the odd Brexiteer to come out of the shadows.

I not suggesting all people who voted to leave are racists, however I'd take a wild guess that most racists voted for Brexit.


No worries mate, I don`t take offence! I just know there are people out there that genuinely believe that everyone that voted leave did so with a racist agenda. As I say in my original post, I agree, a lot of uneducated people probably did vote with a racist agenda.
Re: Brexit watch Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:57 pm  
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homme vaste wrote:
when it comes to Sovereignty ultimately we will have more control of our laws and regulations

Removal of a lot of bureaucratic red tape


These seem to crop up over and over again and there seems to be a preconception that the outome of this will undoubtedly be a good thing. What's to stop someone in power using it as a force for bad? Some of the laws, regulations and red tape actually protect us. Just imagine if someone decided, I don't know, one of those Britannia Unchained nutters, in a quest to compete with the world's sweatshop economies, to shred them all...
"Back home we got a taxidermy man. He gonna have a heart attack when he see what I brung him."
Re: Brexit watch Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:50 pm  

User avatarhomme vaste wrote:
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King Street Cat wrote:
These seem to crop up over and over again and there seems to be a preconception that the outome of this will undoubtedly be a good thing. What's to stop someone in power using it as a force for bad? Some of the laws, regulations and red tape actually protect us. Just imagine if someone decided, I don't know, one of those Britannia Unchained nutters, in a quest to compete with the world's sweatshop economies, to shred them all...


The point is we have control as a democracy though isn't it? We go through a democratic process in our country to elect MP`s and on a larger scale a government in which the majority vote for and agree with - We could go on forever saying what if this and that but it is the point of us having control of those laws. We have no voice in the EU, The majority of our EU MEP seats are taken up by UKIP, what does that tell you?
Re: Brexit watch Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:51 pm  

User avatarhomme vaste wrote:
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And it crops up over and over again as it is a major issue.
Re: Brexit watch Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:19 pm  
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homme vaste wrote:
The point is we have control as a democracy though isn't it? We go through a democratic process in our country to elect MP`s and on a larger scale a government in which the majority vote for and agree with - We could go on forever saying what if this and that but it is the point of us having control of those laws. We have no voice in the EU, The majority of our EU MEP seats are taken up by UKIP, what does that tell you?

You're saying the people we elected to go to the EU offer us no voice in the EU? It seems a bonkers argument to me, just because we chose to send nutters there doesn't make it the system's fault.

Of course though the entire idea that we can disconnect ourselves from the world is utterly misplaced. Leaving the EU gives us less control not more. We rely more on WTO rules, but we have much less say in how the WTO is run than we ever would have in the EU. And as for unelected judges, wait until you see how the WTO resolves trade disputes.

And, of course, we are too small a market to enforce significant regularity deviation from the EU - especially in the market for goods, they will just be made to EU standards and exported to the UK. Whereas before we could refine that in favour of our own industries now we have none of that power.

The modern world is made up of a series of powerful regional trading blocs with barriers withdrawn within them but friction between. It remains utter madness to think that we can act outside this system in a meaningful or ultimately profitable way. We had the best deal of all EU members with carve outs and opt outs and rebates and an entire system (the single market) designed by us and regulations which worked massively in our favour in our key industries. The level of self harm done through our exit is incalculable but it's safe to say the "membership fees" stuff is long gone - we've destroyed multiples of that amount through the economic damage done by exiting.
"Brian McDermott, with a wry smile, nods when asked if he remembers a specific incident which made him realise he was a prick. 'I do', he murmurs."
Re: Brexit watch Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:38 pm  
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Good News Everyone! :DANCE:

We've got a temporary trade deal with Canada!

It's exactly the same as the one we had under the EU.

We will now negotiate a permanent deal with Canada.

Which literally cannot be better than the one we had under the EU because the EU's negotiating power enabled it to insert a preferential status clause whereby if Canada offers better terms to any other trading party they also have to offer them to the EU as well.

This bull**** about leaving making us able to do better trade deals with other countries will run up against a lot of this sort of reality over the coming months.
"Brian McDermott, with a wry smile, nods when asked if he remembers a specific incident which made him realise he was a prick. 'I do', he murmurs."
Re: Brexit watch Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:14 pm  

User avatarhomme vaste wrote:
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The Ghost of '99 wrote:
Good News Everyone! :DANCE:

We've got a temporary trade deal with Canada!

It's exactly the same as the one we had under the EU.

We will now negotiate a permanent deal with Canada.

Which literally cannot be better than the one we had under the EU because the EU's negotiating power enabled it to insert a preferential status clause whereby if Canada offers better terms to any other trading party they also have to offer them to the EU as well.

This bull**** about leaving making us able to do better trade deals with other countries will run up against a lot of this sort of reality over the coming months.


Lets revisit this in a couple years time shall we, I have a feeling that you may have a different view then.

On the "Same trade deal as EU terms" point you will see that with pretty much every country in the world, of course we will and that is fully expected at this point. I am sure I have seen something in the news recently regarding a pandemic? Obviously this has led to a completely different focus not just for our government but the Government of every other country in the world this year.

Another way of looking at it is this fantastic trade deal that Europe negotiated (As a huge entity) with a country such as Canada can be replicated for Britain in a couple of meetings lol, what does that tell you about the political power of the EU project? How they are using there combined power to get great trade deals? Again why can we just replicate that with minimal effort?

In the next 2 years we will start to see some improved terms on trade deals, keeping terms is a stop gap for resilience purposes whilst the entire world has a different focus, but I am sure you already know that?
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