Re: Sex, sexuality and gender : Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:53 pm  

John_D wrote:

So you know which way round to put your jumper on

[Kosh]

Re: Sex, sexuality and gender : Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:56 pm  

As the father of two children - one boy and one girl - who were specifically raised without any gender expectations or pressure whatsoever I can categorically state that this is not the only factor.

Re: Sex, sexuality and gender : Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:59 pm  

We can also throw Asexuality into the mix, I've known a number of people who find they aren't sexually "attracted" to anyone, whatever their sex. I believe that Stephen Fry, when pushed on the subject in an interview, described himself as such.

There have been endless studies of twins and what may or may not determine sexual preference, all of which are inconclusive, bordering on pure speculation.

I know a few MtF transsexuals, one FtM trans and many in between. I've also met a few heterosexual guys who have a predilection for dressing in female clothing. These guys are straight in every aspect of their sexuality, they just enjoy dressing as the opposite sex.

I reckon that's the reason the LGBT community adopted the rainbow as their symbol

Re: Sex, sexuality and gender : Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:07 pm  

Kosh wrote:

As the father of two children - one boy and one girl - who were specifically raised without any gender expectations or pressure whatsoever I can categorically state that this is not the only factor.

Hate to sound thick, but could you expand, Kosh?

[Kosh]

Re: Sex, sexuality and gender : Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:24 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Hate to sound thick, but could you expand, Kosh?

My wife and I were quite 'right on' when we decided to have kids and went out of our way to avoid the normal gender stereotypes and stereotyping behaviours. I've still ended up with teenagers who are easily recognisable as being of male and female gender. As they got older and had more power to make their own decisions on things like toys, colours, and clothes they slowly gravitated towards the kind of things you'd 'expect' for their sexes.

Now - this is not to say I've ended up with a Macho Man and a Barbie Doll. Far from it. The process was quite subtle and they share a lot of joint interests still. But there was clearly another factor or factors at work. And I've allowed for peer pressure once they started interacting socially with the world at large.

Re: Sex, sexuality and gender : Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:51 pm  

Kosh wrote:

My wife and I were quite 'right on' when we decided to have kids and went out of our way to avoid the normal gender stereotypes and stereotyping behaviours. I've still ended up with teenagers who are easily recognisable as being of male and female gender. As they got older and had more power to make their own decisions on things like toys, colours, and clothes they slowly gravitated towards the kind of things you'd 'expect' for their sexes.

Now - this is not to say I've ended up with a Macho Man and a Barbie Doll. Far from it. The process was quite subtle and they share a lot of joint interests still. But there was clearly another factor or factors at work. And I've allowed for peer pressure once they started interacting socially with the world at large.

That serves to reinforce my belief that, although external influences may play some part in determining an individual's sexuality, the overriding driver is nature as opposed to nurture

Re: Sex, sexuality and gender : Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:12 pm  

Karl Pilkington question spoiler alert : One thing I don't get, if gay blokes aren't attracted to females then why act effeminate and if lesbians aren't attracted to males then why act masculine? If you get why I mean, I'm prepared to get shot to pieces especially from mint ball but its an honest call it naive question.

I know all don't buy most do, my brothers gay and he doesn't come across as, same with my barber and his partner you'd never tell not that I'm bothered anyway.

It's like saying your a staunch vegan but you eat quorn, it's not meat but its very close to it kind of thing.

[Durham Giant]

Re: Sex, sexuality and gender : Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:13 pm  

Kosh wrote:

My wife and I were quite 'right on' when we decided to have kids and went out of our way to avoid the normal gender stereotypes and stereotyping behaviours. I've still ended up with teenagers who are easily recognisable as being of male and female gender. As they got older and had more power to make their own decisions on things like toys, colours, and clothes they slowly gravitated towards the kind of things you'd 'expect' for their sexes.

Now - this is not to say I've ended up with a Macho Man and a Barbie Doll. Far from it. The process was quite subtle and they share a lot of joint interests still. But there was clearly another factor or factors at work. And I've allowed for peer pressure once they started interacting socially with the world at large.

Not wanting to worry you about your kids but your parenting was undermined the day your kids were born.

You may have tried to avoid the gender stereotyping BUT all of your family and friends will also have had an influence on them. Everything from the way they played with them, the way they talked to them, the presents they bought them. Granny picking your son up when he banged his knee and saying, " come on be a big boy".

By the time your kids started nursery / junior school their friends and teachers will have had a great influence on them, the sports they were encouraged to play books to read etc.

By the time they went to comp school their friends became even more important and they would have picked up on mannerisms, how to stand, how to interact, clothes to wear etc.

Then hormones kicked in and took them in a certain direction.

During all of this time they would have copied other male and female role models that they saw. At quite a young age they would have known that they had a willy or a tuppence and would have observed how other people with willies and tuppences behaved this would have just been in normal life.

Additionally as they got older they would have very clearly being affected by advertising, media etc which would all have impacted on their developing gender roles etc.

All very easily explained by nurture behaviour

There are also very clear nature effects as well ie brain development etc lots of it to do with emotional development but no time to go into that at the minute.

[Kosh]

Re: Sex, sexuality and gender : Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:32 pm  

Durham Giant wrote:

Not wanting to worry you about your kids but your parenting was undermined the day your kids were born.

You may have tried to avoid the gender stereotyping BUT all of your family and friends will also have had an influence on them. Everything from the way they played with them, the way they talked to them, the presents they bought them. Granny picking your son up when he banged his knee and saying, " come on be a big boy".

Your detailed knowledge of the way my family interacted with my kids is duly noted and, with all due respect, disregarded. Due to being utterly wrong. Both sets of grandparents were aware of our wishes and agreed with them, likewise all other family members and friends who spent any significant time with them at all.

Durham Giant wrote:

By the time your kids started nursery / junior school their friends and teachers will have had a great influence on them, the sports they were encouraged to play books to read etc.

By the time they went to comp school their friends became even more important and they would have picked up on mannerisms, how to stand, how to interact, clothes to wear etc.

You missed the bit where I said I'd allowed for this effect then? And as it happens both the nursery and primary school they went to were very progressive in this regard. High school less so, but by that time they were already their own people.

Durham Giant wrote:

There are also very clear nature effects as well ie brain development etc lots of it to do with emotional development but no time to go into that at the minute.

This was kinda my point. While there is no doubt that nurture plays a part, my personal experience is that it's not as dominant as the majority seem to think.

Re: Sex, sexuality and gender : Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:39 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

... I reckon that's the reason the LGBT community adopted the rainbow as their symbol