Re: Donald Trump : Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:59 pm  

bren2k wrote:

Nah - because we've never acted on dodgy intelligence before have we?

It's not like the Russians have ever assassinated 'traitorous' spies by nefarious means before, is it..? Or indeed made repeated public death threats?

Re: Donald Trump : Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:46 pm  

The Tories jumped in with both feet, and triggered a chain of international diplomatic expulsions - and the Foreign Secretary and the PM lied to the media and the public along the way.

Jeremy Corbyn meanwhile, was vilified for advocating a calm and rational response, due process, and acting when the evidence was available.

Party affiliations aside - who looks like they got it right?

Re: Donald Trump : Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:23 pm  

bren2k wrote:

The Tories jumped in with both feet, and triggered a chain of international diplomatic expulsions - and the Foreign Secretary and the PM lied to the media and the public along the way.

Jeremy Corbyn meanwhile, was vilified for advocating a calm and rational response, due process, and acting when the evidence was available.

Party affiliations aside - who looks like they got it right?

more utter shoite from you.

Re: Donald Trump : Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:01 pm  

PCollinson1990 wrote:

more utter shoite from you.

Discussing things - and arguing - with Cronus is always interesting, because despite our differences, he usually has something intelligent and informed to say.

EDITED - Wanderer
Please keep the debate free from personal insults.

Re: Donald Trump : Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:14 pm  

this nerve agent incident came at a good time for the government, they needed something to divert our attention from the events in Telford that they want to keep quiet, just like Rochdale and Oldham

Re: Donald Trump : Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:46 pm  

QUOTED POST REMOVED - Wanderer
See above.

Re: Donald Trump : Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:51 pm  

bren2k wrote:

The Tories jumped in with both feet, and triggered a chain of international diplomatic expulsions - and the Foreign Secretary and the PM lied to the media and the public along the way.

None of which is correct. Porton Down confirmed the agent was of the Novichok family (this was their only job). Other intelligence combined with the history of Novichok and Russia's motives, means and track record, did the rest.

Don't forget, 29 nations and NATO agreed.

BoJo confirmed they had samples. Which they do. From the victims and from all over Salisbury. Otherwise what on earth did the OPCW collect for examination?

The media, as usual, are inflating a non-story for their own means.

Jeremy Corbyn meanwhile, was vilified for advocating a calm and rational response, due process, and acting when the evidence was available.

Party affiliations aside - who looks like they got it right?

Jeremy couldn't bring himself to condemn his Russian buddies. His own party even turned on him. One permanent member of the UN Security Council uses a chemical weapon to mount an attack on the soil of another permanent member, and he dithers and wrings his hands in Parliament.

As for due process - I ask again (as no-one yet has answered), can you provide examples of where due process hasn't been followed? I keep hearing the phrase but unless I'm wrong, launching an exhaustive investigation, bringing in the appropriate experts and inviting the OPCW to provide their own analysis is indeed due process.

Re: Donald Trump : Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:31 pm  

tigertot wrote: Usually you need a teeny, weeny bit more evidence to be found guilty. Unless the law has changed. These guys were chemists working in a standard laboratory, not at the Iranian Porton Down. Which shows that the information is out there & not limited to nation states as the Government suggests. http://www.spectroscopynow.com/details/ ... &tzcheck=1 As a research chemist I would very much doubt that the materials were made in a "standard lab". While the chemistry involved is relatively low tech, the difficulty is in making the stuff without killing yourself at the same time. This would require a high integrity lab of the sort used in manufacturing highly cytotoxic anti cancer drugs or very strong anaesthetics. This would require airlocks, decontamination areas, using glove boxes and wearing rubber suits with an airhood or BA system. Certainly not what you would find in a standard lab. In addition, the person applying the nerve agent would have to be trained and using protective clothing. I did note that some Novichok agents were developed so that the final two precursors could be stored separately and only mixed prior to use. The assassin could for instance have put one part of the reagent on the front door and the other part on the door handles of the car, thus the material would only be active when both surfaces were touched in quick succession. I think Porton Down probably cross referenced samples from the crime scene against their own internally produced standards. They would have made these when the Russian insider whistle blew on the project in order to test their toxicity and potential treatments. They (PD) could only link the material to Russia if they could compare the impurity profile to that of a sample of authentic Russian made material, which I doubt they have access to. I find the Russian claims that the material used in the assassination attempt came from PD laughable bearing in mind the security at the place and that all scientific staff are vetted prior to employment. FWIW I do think that the Russian government was probably responsible as they have enough expertise and the motive to carry out such an attack. Proving beyond reasonable doubt that they did it is an entirely different matter.

tigertot wrote: Usually you need a teeny, weeny bit more evidence to be found guilty. Unless the law has changed. These guys were chemists working in a standard laboratory, not at the Iranian Porton Down. Which shows that the information is out there & not limited to nation states as the Government suggests. http://www.spectroscopynow.com/details/ ... &tzcheck=1 As a research chemist I would very much doubt that the materials were made in a "standard lab". While the chemistry involved is relatively low tech, the difficulty is in making the stuff without killing yourself at the same time. This would require a high integrity lab of the sort used in manufacturing highly cytotoxic anti cancer drugs or very strong anaesthetics. This would require airlocks, decontamination areas, using glove boxes and wearing rubber suits with an airhood or BA system. Certainly not what you would find in a standard lab. In addition, the person applying the nerve agent would have to be trained and using protective clothing. I did note that some Novichok agents were developed so that the final two precursors could be stored separately and only mixed prior to use. The assassin could for instance have put one part of the reagent on the front door and the other part on the door handles of the car, thus the material would only be active when both surfaces were touched in quick succession. I think Porton Down probably cross referenced samples from the crime scene against their own internally produced standards. They would have made these when the Russian insider whistle blew on the project in order to test their toxicity and potential treatments. They (PD) could only link the material to Russia if they could compare the impurity profile to that of a sample of authentic Russian made material, which I doubt they have access to. I find the Russian claims that the material used in the assassination attempt came from PD laughable bearing in mind the security at the place and that all scientific staff are vetted prior to employment. FWIW I do think that the Russian government was probably responsible as they have enough expertise and the motive to carry out such an attack. Proving beyond reasonable doubt that they did it is an entirely different matter.

Re: Donald Trump : Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:06 am  

RoyBoy29 wrote:

this nerve agent incident came at a good time for the government, they needed something to divert our attention from the events in Telford that they want to keep quiet, just like Rochdale and Oldham

Roy gets it! Don’t forget the brexit shambles!

Regards

King James

Re: Donald Trump : Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:51 pm  

dr_feelgood wrote:

As a research chemist I would very much doubt that the materials were made in a "standard lab". While the chemistry involved is relatively low tech, the difficulty is in making the stuff without killing yourself at the same time. This would require a high integrity lab of the sort used in manufacturing highly cytotoxic anti cancer drugs or very strong anaesthetics. This would require airlocks, decontamination areas, using glove boxes and wearing rubber suits with an airhood or BA system. Certainly not what you would find in a standard lab.

In addition, the person applying the nerve agent would have to be trained and using protective clothing. I did note that some Novichok agents were developed so that the final two precursors could be stored separately and only mixed prior to use. The assassin could for instance have put one part of the reagent on the front door and the other part on the door handles of the car, thus the material would only be active when both surfaces were touched in quick succession.

I think Porton Down probably cross referenced samples from the crime scene against their own internally produced standards. They would have made these when the Russian insider whistle blew on the project in order to test their toxicity and potential treatments. They (PD) could only link the material to Russia if they could compare the impurity profile to that of a sample of authentic Russian made material, which I doubt they have access to.

I find the Russian claims that the material used in the assassination attempt came from PD laughable bearing in mind the security at the place and that all scientific staff are vetted prior to employment.

FWIW I do think that the Russian government was probably responsible as they have enough expertise and the motive to carry out such an attack. Proving beyond reasonable doubt that they did it is an entirely different matter.

Don't come on here with educated comments.