Re: Donald Trump : Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:43 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Don't come on here with educated comments.

indeed, being educated seems to be a form of intellectual warfare on The Sin Bin!

Re: Donald Trump : Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:34 pm  

dr_feelgood wrote:

As a research chemist I would very much doubt that the materials were made in a "standard lab". While the chemistry involved is relatively low tech, the difficulty is in making the stuff without killing yourself at the same time. This would require a high integrity lab of the sort used in manufacturing highly cytotoxic anti cancer drugs or very strong anaesthetics. This would require airlocks, decontamination areas, using glove boxes and wearing rubber suits with an airhood or BA system. Certainly not what you would find in a standard lab.

In addition, the person applying the nerve agent would have to be trained and using protective clothing. I did note that some Novichok agents were developed so that the final two precursors could be stored separately and only mixed prior to use. The assassin could for instance have put one part of the reagent on the front door and the other part on the door handles of the car, thus the material would only be active when both surfaces were touched in quick succession.

I think Porton Down probably cross referenced samples from the crime scene against their own internally produced standards. They would have made these when the Russian insider whistle blew on the project in order to test their toxicity and potential treatments. They (PD) could only link the material to Russia if they could compare the impurity profile to that of a sample of authentic Russian made material, which I doubt they have access to.

I find the Russian claims that the material used in the assassination attempt came from PD laughable bearing in mind the security at the place and that all scientific staff are vetted prior to employment.

FWIW I do think that the Russian government was probably responsible as they have enough expertise and the motive to carry out such an attack. Proving beyond reasonable doubt that they did it is an entirely different matter.

Where does this leave the comments made by Boris, which were totally unambiguous and he quoted PD as having said that it was DEFINITELY the Russian state, quite different from the spokesman from PD.
Could there have been any exaggeration or embellishment from Boris ? and if so, why ?

Re: Donald Trump : Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:06 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Where does this leave the comments made by Boris, which were totally unambiguous and he quoted PD as having said that it was DEFINITELY the Russian state, quite different from the spokesman from PD.
Could there have been any exaggeration or embellishment from Boris ? and if so, why ?

Because brexiteers like Cronus believe every word he says and thus, deflects from the train wreck we call brexit

Regards

King James

Re: Donald Trump : Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:26 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Where does this leave the comments made by Boris, which were totally unambiguous and he quoted PD as having said that it was DEFINITELY the Russian state, quite different from the spokesman from PD.
Could there have been any exaggeration or embellishment from Boris ? and if so, why ?

See, this is where the media twist words in desperation for a scandal. It was almost embarrassing watching various journalists being destroyed last night, as it was made clear what a non-story this is. Jon Snow's best reply was reduced to, 'that may be the case but there is still a row about this'.

Johnson simply didn't say PD had definitely identified the source of the agent as Russia. He merely confirmed PD had samples. Which they do, from the victims and from various locations around Salisbury. PD were in fact never tasked to identify the source, which is why headlines such as 'PD unable to identify source' are disingenuous as that was never their job. They confirmed it was a Novichok agent and it's of course likely they provided background on the Novichok family. PD clearly confirmed it was a combination of evidence and intelligence that lead to identifying Russia.

Interviewer, “They have the samples?”
Johnson, “They do. And they were absolutely categorical and I asked the guy myself, I said, ‘Are you sure?’ And he said there’s no doubt.”

Rather than focus on the fact a nerve agent attack has been mounted on British soil, people wring their hands and waste time over nonsense like this, none of which in shifts any burden of guilt away from Russia.

The Russian Ambassador was hilarious this afternoon. He's clearly a very smart guy, but watching him lying through his teeth was brilliant.

Re: Donald Trump : Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:24 pm  

Lebron James wrote:

Because brexiteers like Cronus believe every word he says and thus, deflects from the train wreck we call brexit

Regards

King James

more nonsense, no facts, no conversation, just occasional insults

Re: Donald Trump : Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:26 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Where does this leave the comments made by Boris, which were totally unambiguous and he quoted PD as having said that it was DEFINITELY the Russian state, quite different from the spokesman from PD.
Could there have been any exaggeration or embellishment from Boris ? and if so, why ?

yawn, again
what is the point in The Sin Bin when all it is Commerade Corbyn bin?

Re: Donald Trump : Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:07 pm  

PD stated that it was a Novichok agent and would need a "state operator" to use it in such a manner. They didn't say which state was responsible and said that that investigation was down to the Police and intelligence services. PD never stated that Russia was responsible, that was down to the PM and that buffoon Boris.

Re: Donald Trump : Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:12 pm  

PCollinson1990 wrote:

yawn, again
what is the point in The Sin Bin when all it is Commerade Corbyn bin?

Here you go again, trusting the politicians.
Everyone in public office, of any political persuasion should be open to scrutiny.
To trust them all is just plain wrong, whether their name is May, Corbyn, Blair or Cameron.
They are usually in the business of self preservation and remaining or obtaining power.
Truth and credibility, especially in the modern era come way down the shaft and blind followers of either side remain blinkered.

Much of the media is aligned to one party or another and again, truth always comes second to their own agenda.

If we had an impartial press and media, with a bit less drama, perhaps the truth would come out but to blindly back either side (Tory or Labour) is just naive and if we ever stop questioning those in power, we will ALL be screwed.

Re: Donald Trump : Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:10 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Here you go again, trusting the politicians.
Everyone in public office, of any political persuasion should be open to scrutiny.
To trust them all is just plain wrong, whether their name is May, Corbyn, Blair or Cameron.
They are usually in the business of self preservation and remaining or obtaining power.
Truth and credibility, especially in the modern era come way down the shaft and blind followers of either side remain blinkered.

Much of the media is aligned to one party or another and again, truth always comes second to their own agenda.

If we had an impartial press and media, with a bit less drama, perhaps the truth would come out but to blindly back either side (Tory or Labour) is just naive and if we ever stop questioning those in power, we will ALL be screwed.

and where does your superior, unbiased, information come from?

Re: Donald Trump : Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:48 am  

Cronus wrote:

Interviewer, “They have the samples?”
Johnson, “They do. And they were absolutely categorical and I asked the guy myself, I said, ‘Are you sure?’ And he said there’s no doubt.”

Absolutely incorrect - you've obviously only seen the Newsnight version of events, where they faded the footage in *after* the initial question:

Interviewer: “You argue that the source of this nerve agent – novichok – is Russia. How did you manage to find it out so quickly? Does Britain possess samples of this?”

Mr Johnson replied: "When I look at the evidence, the people from Porton Down, the laboratory… they were absolutely categorical, I mean, I asked the guy myself, I said, 'are you sure?' and he said 'there's no doubt.' And so, we have very little alternative but to take the action that we have taken."

Regardless of what happened, it's shameful that Boris Johnson is allowed to persistently lie and obfuscate with no consequences, and that the BBC is now blatantly acting as the state propaganda outlet, mobilised to protect him from his latest lie.

And that's aside from another Government expert saying that the reason the Skripal's didn't die the horrible death that this nerve agent is purported to cause ("it could have killed half of Salisbury" according to Ben Wallace) was because Porton Down had an antidote - despite previously saying that there was no antidote.

The whole thing stinks - we are being misled on an epic scale, because it's politically helpful to the incumbent government.