[Durham Giant]

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:46 pm  

PrinterThe wrote:

What is the right thing then??? Like I asked earlier but no answer, do we think the "carry on as normal" will make the bad guys get fed up and go away? People that naive?

And this knee jerk claim btw, me and most who are saying the same thing would've said this 12 months ago so you can stop dismissing it as people who are just too emotive at the moment, yet again another weak attempt to downplay the views of others.....'has to be emotive, has to racist etc'.

As others have mentioned in previous pages I don't have the exact answers to how we toughen up....but on the flip side the "carry on as normal" group can't tell me how that's going to stop children getting nail bombed.

Again you dismiss cracking down on known exterminate as simply the individuals who commuted these crimes......this goes higher than them towards the guys who radicalise them but are too cowardly to strap a bomb to themselves. Do you honestly think we're are tough enough on the numerous hate preachers in this country?

Again you seem to not understand that suggesting we think about what we are doing that this means not cracking down.

There are many things that could be done.

Deal with the causes of some of the sympathy that people have for these extremists.

Stop getting rid of dictators we don't like but supporting ones that we do.

Stop invading countries and creating political vacuums in which they can survive and thrive.

Stop saying we re going to promote peace and democracy and equality in te Middle East but then ignore the war inequality and lack of democracy in Saudi Arabia, Yemen or Palestine.

Bring in control orders and prosecutions of Islamic extremists with JUDICiAL oversight.


Get more police on the streets.

Increase the number of security personnel needed to keep n eye on the potential terrirists.

Both the attackers in London nd Manchester were all reported to the Police and security Services on a number of occasions by members of the MUSLIM community.


What you do not do is increase the alienation anger and feelings of hypocrisy and discrimination which lead many people to sympathise with some of he aims of the extremists.

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:53 pm  

Durham Giant wrote:

Well like Corbin says one of the key issues we need to address is Saudi Arabia.

You will remember tem they are the ones who bombed te Twin Towers in New York.

They are the ones we arm continually and buy oil from.

They are the ones who who run the madrasahs who promote radical Sunni Islam. They are the ones who are funding the fight against Assad.


They are the ones who fund the Sunni muslims and the preachers who promote the radical Islamic view.

Nice to know that you fully support Jeremy Corbin. Who has made this very point that we need to re evalulate our relationship with Saudi Arabia and have a discussion with them about what they do.

Maybe we could stop selling them jets and bombs that they drop on Houthi rebels in Yemen.


Do you trust Theresa May to stand up to the Saudis ?

Oh is Saudi Arabia the country to blame now because it coincides with attacking Theresa May? Previous years it's been Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq etc......wonder what next years middle eastern country to put in the spotlight will be instead of ignoring the Muslim individuals (note I said individuals before I inevitably get accused of wanting all muslims to die or be deported) in this country who are going untouched because people are so sh*t scared of offending people. And those same people have the cheek to say we shouldn't give into fear...,.these acts are happening because of those peoples fear of offending.

[Durham Giant]

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:13 pm  

PrinterThe wrote: Oh is Saudi Arabia the country to blame now because it coincides with attacking Theresa May? Previous years it's been Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq etc......wonder what next years middle eastern country to put in the spotlight will be instead of ignoring the Muslim individuals (note I said individuals before I inevitably get accused of wanting all muslims to die or be deported) in this country who are going untouched because people are so sh*t scared of offending people. And those same people have the cheek to say we shouldn't give into fear...,.these acts are happening because of those peoples fear of offending. It is pointless talking to you as you are so angry and frustrated you cannot get past the" we need to do something" mentality. You seem incapable of any sort of rational thought https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/opin ... .html?_r=0 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 73551.html Do a google search it is as clear as day follows night that Saudis Arabia is promoting salamis mall over the Middle East and in the west. I have been saying this for years so have Many others. May is talking about limiting free speech cracking down on Facebook etc. It is ignoring the big issue about Saudi Arabia. This is a fact.. Regardless of the election and Theresa May. Saudi Arabia is a disgusting state in its attitudes to women gays non muslims etc. Yet we bomb Iraq for the same reasons that we sell bombs and planes to Saudi Arabia. Deal with the cause of the cancer not just the symptoms. Locking up 3000 Muslim extremists in Britain will do nothing to stop those who are recruited in the next generations by the Saudis and their beliefs money and political ambitions in the Middle East.

PrinterThe wrote: Oh is Saudi Arabia the country to blame now because it coincides with attacking Theresa May? Previous years it's been Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq etc......wonder what next years middle eastern country to put in the spotlight will be instead of ignoring the Muslim individuals (note I said individuals before I inevitably get accused of wanting all muslims to die or be deported) in this country who are going untouched because people are so sh*t scared of offending people. And those same people have the cheek to say we shouldn't give into fear...,.these acts are happening because of those peoples fear of offending. It is pointless talking to you as you are so angry and frustrated you cannot get past the" we need to do something" mentality. You seem incapable of any sort of rational thought https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/opin ... .html?_r=0 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 73551.html Do a google search it is as clear as day follows night that Saudis Arabia is promoting salamis mall over the Middle East and in the west. I have been saying this for years so have Many others. May is talking about limiting free speech cracking down on Facebook etc. It is ignoring the big issue about Saudi Arabia. This is a fact.. Regardless of the election and Theresa May. Saudi Arabia is a disgusting state in its attitudes to women gays non muslims etc. Yet we bomb Iraq for the same reasons that we sell bombs and planes to Saudi Arabia. Deal with the cause of the cancer not just the symptoms. Locking up 3000 Muslim extremists in Britain will do nothing to stop those who are recruited in the next generations by the Saudis and their beliefs money and political ambitions in the Middle East.

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:09 pm  

Both sides of the debate are correct, but both are also wrong in failing to acknowledge the other side of the debate. We have to accept there is a huge problem within the Islamic community in regards to the Islamist/Wahhabi ideology. Simply saying, it has nothing to do with Islam is very naive. Yes, I'm sure the the majority of Muslims are peaceful people in general, but with 3m Muslims in the UK, even if only 1% subscribe, or sympathise with IS or Wahhabism that's still 30,000 potential extremists. Our security services are stretched to breaking point, it's impossible for them alone to weed out every potential threat. Muslims in this country need to do more to bring these people to the attention of the security services, and to other people in their communities. Islam is in dire need of a reformation, at the very least, because it's clear some of the Islamic scriptures are not compatible with modern civilization. Having said that, it took over 1500 years for Christianity to have it's reformation, and not too long before that there was the Spanish inquisition in Europe. We're about 1450 years into Islam's life, so perhaps what we're seeing now with IS is Islam's own Spanish inquisition. Whatever it is, it needs to end.
On the other side, it's also naive to think that our actions have nothing to do with increasing the threat of terrorism. We've cut police numbers by 20,000, we've not even appointed a counter terrorism co-coordinator. We've sold weapons to Saudi Arabia and allowed them to spread their ideology all over the world. We've essentially chopped up the middle east and propped up countless dictators in the region through selling them weapons and buying their oil. Then when they've decided they don't want to play ball anymore, we bring them down without having any plan to rebuild any type of democracy or infrastructure thus resulting the rise of groups like IS. Also, locking them all up in the same prisons was a huge error. Coalition forces have essentially created a huge global network of extremists by doing so.
I'd also suggest, carrying on as normal is a society is exactly what we should be doing. These people hate our way of life, they hate our democracy, and essentially the worst kind of fascists. Showing them that we won't bend to their barbarism is one of the best weapons we have at our disposal.

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:34 pm  

Durham Giant wrote:

It is pointless talking to you as you are so angry and frustrated you cannot get past the" we need to do something" mentality.

You seem incapable of any sort of rational though.

It's pointless talking to you because you and others just throw the full of hate and anger card. I'm not at all, but because it's the opposite to your views you feel the need to accuse my views of being attached to strong emotions to hide the fact you can't or don't want to answer the tougher questions raised.

Maybe in your mind we don't have to do anything, maybe you're okay that in a few weeks time more young children may well be nailed bombed and then you can start again pointing the finger at British people and politicians as the ones responsible. Just don't blame the ones responsible or at least find excuses for them like a rapist who blames the provocative way a girl was dressed.

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:48 pm  

PrinterThe wrote:

It's pointless talking to you because you and others just throw the full of hate and anger card. I'm not at all, but because it's the opposite to your views you feel the need to accuse my views of being attached to strong emotions to hide the fact you can't or don't want to answer the tougher questions raised.

Maybe in your mind we don't have to do anything, maybe you're okay that in a few weeks time more young children may well be nailed bombed and then you can start again pointing the finger at British people and politicians as the ones responsible. Just don't blame the ones responsible or at least find excuses for them like a rapist who blames the provocative way a girl was dressed.

He's made several valid points above, and even asked what we should do, and what you mean by 'we need to get tougher' and whether we should intern Muslims with extremist views. He's also suggested some things we could do to solve the issue, but you keep accusing people of wanting to do nothing, yet you haven't put anything plausible solution forward. Fine, lock them up, but then what, and how long for? So far all you've done is say people are scared of offending Muslims, and thrown in a couple of empty straw man fallacies. I mean comparing geopolitics to rape is about as reductionist as it gets.

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:53 am  

PrinterThe wrote:

It's pointless talking to you because you and others just throw the full of hate and anger card. I'm not at all, but because it's the opposite to your views you feel the need to accuse my views of being attached to strong emotions to hide the fact you can't or don't want to answer the tougher questions raised.

Maybe in your mind we don't have to do anything, maybe you're okay that in a few weeks time more young children may well be nailed bombed and then you can start again pointing the finger at British people and politicians as the ones responsible. Just don't blame the ones responsible or at least find excuses for them like a rapist who blames the provocative way a girl was dressed.

So what are your solutions? The answer is there are no easy solutions. We are not living in a Hollywood movie. We’ve been complicit in creating a monster that will take years to placate. Internment didn’t work in Northern Ireland, it won’t work here. I do think senior Muslims in this country do need to spell out to younger people, loud & clear, that they will face eternal damnation or whatever warped logic their religion says. But more than that, we need to be honest about the hypocrisy & immorality of our actions in Muslim countries; both invading/bombing into the dark ages & selling of arms to evil dictatorships.
If you are suggesting starting to lock people up for thoughts or words that you might not like then we are on a very slippy slope which will create more monsters. Are those thoughts &words just reserved for Muslims, or to white people who urge violence against blacks/Muslims/MPs?

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:14 am  

Unfortunately this situation will worsen both in the U.K and over in France and Germany . Have seen several Islamic leaders taunting us with the fact muslims have large families who in turn have large families.
All these children are subject to hard line Muslim rhetoric. It's virtually impossible for any of these offspring to marry outside of the Muslim structures.
Any that attempt to buck that trend are usually killed , ironically under the heading honour killing. It seems some on this forum seem to think/imply that it's Teresa Mays fault. Whilst ignoring the fact that labour for 13 years had a virtual open door policy.
Without doubt both parties should share some of the responsibility for permitting this scenario.
The root cause of the problem started many years ago with the vilification of a Bradford head teacher who dared to suggest that incoming migrants were not doing enough to integrate into society. He was hounded from office by the left wing politicians.
I repeat my comments I posted previously, the only solution to the problem has to come from the Muslim community.
At the moment this is not forthcoming, whilst some are appearing in public and making the right kind of comments, in private it's a different matter.

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:36 am  

Charlie Sheen wrote:

Both sides of the debate are correct, but both are also wrong in failing to acknowledge the other side of the debate. We have to accept there is a huge problem within the Islamic community in regards to the Islamist/Wahhabi ideology. Simply saying, it has nothing to do with Islam is very naive. Yes, I'm sure the the majority of Muslims are peaceful people in general, but with 3m Muslims in the UK, even if only 1% subscribe, or sympathise with IS or Wahhabism that's still 30,000 potential extremists. Our security services are stretched to breaking point, it's impossible for them alone to weed out every potential threat. Muslims in this country need to do more to bring these people to the attention of the security services, and to other people in their communities. Islam is in dire need of a reformation, at the very least, because it's clear some of the Islamic scriptures are not compatible with modern civilization. Having said that, it took over 1500 years for Christianity to have it's reformation, and not too long before that there was the Spanish inquisition in Europe. We're about 1450 years into Islam's life, so perhaps what we're seeing now with IS is Islam's own Spanish inquisition. Whatever it is, it needs to end.
On the other side, it's also naive to think that our actions have nothing to do with increasing the threat of terrorism. We've cut police numbers by 20,000, we've not even appointed a counter terrorism co-coordinator. We've sold weapons to Saudi Arabia and allowed them to spread their ideology all over the world. We've essentially chopped up the middle east and propped up countless dictators in the region through selling them weapons and buying their oil. Then when they've decided they don't want to play ball anymore, we bring them down without having any plan to rebuild any type of democracy or infrastructure thus resulting the rise of groups like IS. Also, locking them all up in the same prisons was a huge error. Coalition forces have essentially created a huge global network of extremists by doing so.
I'd also suggest, carrying on as normal is a society is exactly what we should be doing. These people hate our way of life, they hate our democracy, and essentially the worst kind of fascists. Showing them that we won't bend to their barbarism is one of the best weapons we have at our disposal.

You're absolutely right - and I guess the debate is polarised because we have an election upcoming, which makes it very difficult to discuss on anything other than party lines.

On reflection, I'm not naïve enough to think that JC and a Labour government will solve the issue of Islamist terrorist attacks - but I am idealistic and hopeful enough to think that we need a different approach. Bombing these places into oblivion creates a power vacuum *and* a reason for more people to hate the West - which IS have exploited with more guile than some people give them credit for. Equally, our persistent cosying up to the vile Saudi regime has provided resources to fund and equip this network all over the world. At the same time, failures of successive governments to manage non-EU immigration have allowed many people with bad intentions to settle here and foment these beliefs in others. And then there's the thorny issue of religion itself - I have always believed that all religions are dangerous and belong in the dark ages, but it can't be denied that there are elements of Islam which provide those willing to interpret it with a mandate to murder.

I don't often climb down - but I agree - there is merit in *parts* of the approach from both sides of the argument; unfortunately, the adversarial nature of our politics doesn't always promote that type of conversation.

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:43 am  

Backwoodsman wrote:

Unfortunately this situation will worsen both in the U.K and over in France and Germany . Have seen several Islamic leaders taunting us with the fact muslims have large families who in turn have large families.
All these children are subject to hard line Muslim rhetoric. It's virtually impossible for any of these offspring to marry outside of the Muslim structures.

I work with several devout Muslims. Every one of them is the kindest, most polite person you could wish to meet. None of their children go to Muslim only schools. One sends his son to a Jewish school. As far as I know none of the children have been killed yet.