Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:23 pm  

Dally wrote:

G W Bush and Tony Blair made it clear years ago - its a battle between the civilised and uncivilised and that people are either for us or against us. But, as ever, the liberati mocked and hounded them and political resolve was weakened. People need to take a look in the mirror. To defend freedom and democracy requires people to fight for it and be ruthless in its defence.

Does this mean that you STILL think that Bush and Blair were right.
The power vacuum left after toppling Saddam and Gadaffi is utterly horrendous.
Nobody can deny that both of them were tyrants and carried out some despicable things but, do you honestly believe that those two countries (Iran and Libya) are in a better state now and less of a threat to "the west" than they were previously.

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:38 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Nobody can deny that both of them were tyrants and carried out some despicable things but,

That's Bush & Blair for you...

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:55 pm  

Dally wrote:

G W Bush and Tony Blair made it clear years ago - its a battle between the civilised and uncivilised and that people are either for us or against us. But, as ever, the liberati mocked and hounded them and political resolve was weakened. People need to take a look in the mirror. To defend freedom and democracy requires people to fight for it and be ruthless in its defence.

Who is the more uncivilised? The west has dropped nuclear bombs, billions of tonnes of other bombs, we sell billions of £'s of weapons to areas and profit off of ensuing conflict.

The west has travelled the globe raping and pillaging natural resources and murdering/enslaving people, put people in concentration camps etc.

Completely false narrative

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:57 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote: The power vacuum left after toppling Saddam and Gadaffi is utterly horrendous. Correct - even Gaddafi predicted the rise of jihadists following his departure, but he wasn't taken seriously.

wrencat1873 wrote: The power vacuum left after toppling Saddam and Gadaffi is utterly horrendous. Correct - even Gaddafi predicted the rise of jihadists following his departure, but he wasn't taken seriously.

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:20 pm  

tigertot wrote:

I would put my mortgage on you reading the Wail. You try & compare a hate-filled Nazi supporting paper with the Guardian for balance? You are desperate.

Where have all the BNP voters gone? Labour, Libs, Greens? Stevie Wonder can see it is a small goose step to UKIP. As with BNP, I have not heard a UKIP voter on the street who isn’t racist. The Tories are moving more & more that way to woo the UKIP vote.

You then jump to your usual cowardly tactic of making sweeping unfounded generalisations because you cannot argue your point. Saying I am seeking to justify Muslim attacks is childish & pathetic. You bring up one post from an idiot about the horrific murder of Lee Rigby to try & taint anyone left of centre. Equally cheap & pathetic. An easy counter point is all the bile supporting the murder of Jo Cox.

I would suggest you are the one that's desperate. As always when losing an argument petty insults are thrown. You have accused me of being cheap ,cowardly and pathetic ,presumably because my veiws are different to yours.
You are still persisting with this bizarre daily mail fixation. I merely pointed out that one paper is right wing and the other is left wing. It's not my problem that you consider that the mail is a nazi outlet. I could not give a tinkers cuss about the daily mail, although I presume you read it to form the opinions you have.
Even if all bnp voters transferred allegiance to ukip the number of votes is still minute, so your argument falls down on that point.
You then accuse a large part of ukip to be racist, presumably because they feel with some justification that the country has just about had enough of uncontrolled immigration.
Quite a large number of ukip voters have come over from the Labour Party, chiefly because the Labour Party has been instrumental in flooding the country with cheap labour. Thus turning it's back on the working man.
Part of today's political problems is that anybody pointing out these problems are immediately labelled racist.

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:30 pm  

Backwoodsman wrote: the Labour Party has been instrumental in flooding the country with cheap labour. Thus turning it's back on the working man. Simply. Not. True. The main takeaway from that article, for anyone unable to be ar$ed to read it, is as follows: The LSE’s Jonathan Wadsworth said: “The bottom line, which may surprise many people, is that EU immigration has not harmed the pay, jobs or public services enjoyed by Britons. In fact, for the most part it has likely made us better off. So, far from EU immigration being a “necessary evil” that we pay to get access to the greater trade and foreign investment generated by the EU single market, immigration is at worse neutral, and at best, another economic benefit.”

Backwoodsman wrote: the Labour Party has been instrumental in flooding the country with cheap labour. Thus turning it's back on the working man. Simply. Not. True. The main takeaway from that article, for anyone unable to be ar$ed to read it, is as follows: The LSE’s Jonathan Wadsworth said: “The bottom line, which may surprise many people, is that EU immigration has not harmed the pay, jobs or public services enjoyed by Britons. In fact, for the most part it has likely made us better off. So, far from EU immigration being a “necessary evil” that we pay to get access to the greater trade and foreign investment generated by the EU single market, immigration is at worse neutral, and at best, another economic benefit.”

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:38 pm  

bren2k wrote: Simply. Not. True. The main takeaway from that article, for anyone unable to be ar$ed to read it, is as follows: The LSE’s Jonathan Wadsworth said: “The bottom line, which may surprise many people, is that EU immigration has not harmed the pay, jobs or public services enjoyed by Britons. In fact, for the most part it has likely made us better off. So, far from EU immigration being a “necessary evil” that we pay to get access to the greater trade and foreign investment generated by the EU single market, immigration is at worse neutral, and at best, another economic benefit.” It does beg one question - why are wages not rising when employment is? Is this a consequence of less expensive labour being an option?

bren2k wrote: Simply. Not. True. The main takeaway from that article, for anyone unable to be ar$ed to read it, is as follows: The LSE’s Jonathan Wadsworth said: “The bottom line, which may surprise many people, is that EU immigration has not harmed the pay, jobs or public services enjoyed by Britons. In fact, for the most part it has likely made us better off. So, far from EU immigration being a “necessary evil” that we pay to get access to the greater trade and foreign investment generated by the EU single market, immigration is at worse neutral, and at best, another economic benefit.” It does beg one question - why are wages not rising when employment is? Is this a consequence of less expensive labour being an option?

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:42 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

It does beg one question - why are wages not rising when employment is? Is this a consequence of less expensive labour being an option?

Doesn't it beg the question - why do so many morons persist with the idea that EU migration took jobs from UK citizens and overloaded public services?!

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:58 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

It does beg one question - why are wages not rising when employment is? Is this a consequence of less expensive labour being an option?

Do you think that the 1% public sector increases have increased average pay or had a negative effect on wage inflation ?
It's quite incredible that the Tories bang on about the number of jobs created during their 7 years in charge but, the "quality" of so many of these new employment opportunities is truly awful, almost akin to the YOP schemes of the 80's.
Apprenticeships, zero hours, low value self employment ?? now of which have been brought about by immigration but, you have to believe what you want to believe.
Maybe "strong and stable" Britain was a myth, you decide and if it is/was so strong and stable, why would a responsible government jepordise things by calling an election, it sure as hell wasn't to have smooth Brexit negotiations.
May had 3 years left at the helm, ample time to carry out Brexit negotiations, which have a 2 year time frame.
You could say that she is being reckless with the country's future

Re: Is nowhere safe? Manchester : Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:02 pm  

bren2k wrote:

Doesn't it beg the question - why do so many morons persist with the idea that EU migration took jobs from UK citizens and overloaded public services?!

I personally witnessed eu migration taking jobs from local workers. I was an electrical sub contractor working on major projects when the first trickle of polish builders arrived. This then became a tidal wave, remember Blair and mandelson thinking thirteen thousand would come. It was in the region of seven hundred thousand. The self employed rate for joiners and plasterers at that time was about £150 per day. The polish lads would work for half that. The major building contractors were overjoyed at this outcome. Even the safety signs onsite were in polish and English. I have nothing against the polish workers we all got on well together. They all worked hard and sent money home to families in Poland .
If you recall at that time Germany wanted a seven year period before taking in polish workers. Although the polish lads I worked with had no love of the Germans. So would not go to Germany under any circumstances.
Wages more or less work on the supply and demand. If the economy is booming employers have to pay more money to attract workers. Since we have uncontrolled borders the Mike Ashley's of this world have had a field day shipping in cheap labour. Sometimes not even having the decency to pay the minimum wage.