Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:14 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

I'm willing to bet that what you know about Brendon Barber (I'm talking facts - not speculation, accusations etc.) wouldn't fill a sheet of A4.

Well indeed. He wouldn't know that, for instance, between school and university, Barber spent a year with VSO teaching in the Volta Region of Ghana – but, as anyone will tell you, that's not "the real world" (© Sal). He also apparently time as a researcher for the Ceramics, Glass and Mineral Products Industry Training Board, based in Harrow. The last time I checked, that wasn't a "closeted union environment" either.

But then again, Sal isn't interested in "evidence" – in fact, when anyone provides him with some, he runs away, fingers in his ears, shouting about it not being "the real world" so that he won't have to acknowledge that he repeatedly does what he accuses others of.

And of course, his argument is utterly stupid anyone – unless he opens it up to say the same about the bankers and financiers and corporate bosses who have no clue what it is like to live in "the real world" and simply make decisions, as Coddy said, for short-term gain, regardless of the human costs. But then, as we have seen, Sal lives in a world where human beings don't really matter – well at least not unless they're corporate bigwigs. The rest are simply fodder for their profits.

It would seem that Sal is one of those who are not capable of thinking past the most basic anti-union propaganda, which makes his little knee jerk almost orgasmically. He constantly refuses to acknowledge the examples that Cod'ead provides of Germany, just as he constantly refuses to acknowledge that there are sh*tty bosses out there.

A piece of rocket-science 'research', released yesterday, showed that losing one's job is a rising fear. Oh what a joy this neo-liberal little world is, eh? With unions that have been put in their place by that magnificent Thatcher woman, the working majority now so scared for their livelihoods that they won't object when they're told to bend over for a kicking, working longer than in the days before the unions were handbagged – albeit while producing lower GDP. Take that you damnable Froggies! And that's without looking at all the unpaid, undocumented overtime that people do because, if they don't, they're afraid they'll lose their jobs (but all bosses are utterly fair and utterly nice and utterly considerate of each individual worker, remember).

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:32 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Him wrote:

But don't you realise you poor bitter twisted parasitic trades unionist apologist. Sal is talking about the real world. You know, where minimum-wage carers have expense accounts.

Is this the same world where I advised against buying bananas?

And getting a job is easy if you so wish?

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:30 pm  

Anakin Skywalker wrote: And getting a job is easy if you so wish? Well indeed. And anyone who cannot simply walk into a job is a feckless, workshy scrounger.

Anakin Skywalker wrote: And getting a job is easy if you so wish? Well indeed. And anyone who cannot simply walk into a job is a feckless, workshy scrounger.

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:04 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

El Barbudo wrote:

Sal Paradise wrote:

...There is legislation in place and sanctions to ensure H&S standards etc...

Where did the legislation come from ... did the business leaders demand it?
No, it came from governments who were slightly to the left.

Not so - political change is almost always a result of grass roots activism applying pressure like a tourniquet. Politicians are usually protectors of the business class (and the status quo) before the people and switch sides when the straw breaks the camel's back. Unfortunately, history rarely recognises the role of grass roots activism and mostly attributes change to the "heroic" actions of noble politicians.

I take your point about grass roots but don't quite agree about politicians.
History is littered with politicians who had the cojones to do what they felt was right, from Thomas Fowell Buxton through Ramsay Macdonald to Dennis Skinner.

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:16 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

Mugwump wrote:

El Barbudo wrote:

Sal Paradise wrote:

...There is legislation in place and sanctions to ensure H&S standards etc...

Where did the legislation come from ... did the business leaders demand it?
No, it came from governments who were slightly to the left.

Not so - political change is almost always a result of grass roots activism applying pressure like a tourniquet. Politicians are usually protectors of the business class (and the status quo) before the people and switch sides when the straw breaks the camel's back. Unfortunately, history rarely recognises the role of grass roots activism and mostly attributes change to the "heroic" actions of noble politicians.

I take your point about grass roots but don't quite agree about politicians.
History is littered with politicians who had the cojones to do what they felt was right, from Thomas Fowell Buxton through Ramsay Macdonald to Dennis Skinner.

I don't dispute that a minority of politicians had the stones to take a stand on some issue or another and they should be applauded. But the impetus to take such action didn't appear to them as an apparition like Saul on the road to Damascus. It was grass roots activism - letters, petitions, demonstrations etc. - by regular people which made the difference. Take Wilberforce for instance. Today he is widely acclaimed and honoured for the stand he took on the issue of slavery - but he and others only did so because they were being put under ENORMOUS pressure by church activists, dissidents etc. Yet THESE people are rarely mentioned in the great book of history.

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:41 am  

Mintball wrote:

A piece of rocket-science 'research', released yesterday, showed that losing one's job is a rising fear. Oh what a joy this neo-liberal little world is, eh? With unions that have been put in their place by that magnificent Thatcher woman, the working majority now so scared for their livelihoods that they won't object when they're told to bend over for a kicking, working longer than in the days before the unions were handbagged – albeit while producing lower GDP.

Small to mid-sized businesses - where upper management and those clinging on to the bottom rung share the same building - generally aren't in the habit of encouraging fear as a motivating force. Yes, there are plenty of bad managers, "old school" autocratic bosses etc., but when the day-to-day business is conducted between employees on a face-to-face basis it takes an extraordinary degree of cynicism to completely shield yourself from collegiality, empathy and ultimately - conscience. Sure, some people can do this. But - consistently - not many.

In large and/or deeply stratified businesses where management and employees rarely - if ever - come into direct contact this kind of thing is far more common. I'm not saying a CEO's conscience is never troubled by tough decisions - but it's troubled A LOT less if a name doesn't equate to a face, a personality or the possibility of an angry reaction.

Of course, big business has been in the business of cultivating feelings of insecurity among workers for decades. Let's not forget that no lesser mortal than Alan Greenspan at least in part attributed economic success in the 90s to companies putting the frighteners on workers in order to get just that bit more out of them. What's more - he approved of their actions.

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:06 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Small to mid-sized businesses - where upper management and those clinging on to the bottom rung share the same building - generally aren't in the habit of encouraging fear as a motivating force. Yes, there are plenty of bad managers, "old school" autocratic bosses etc ...

You're not wrong about how small business bosses can behave.

Perhaps I was just chronically unlucky, but – until relatively recently – I'd only worked in small companies and it was with a series of bosses who were, in a variety of ways, utterly dismal, from downright corrupt*, to incompetent**, to bullying***.

Actually, I'd say that, on the basis of personal experience, the bigger companies/organisations I've worked for have been far better.

Now either I'm not only unlucky, but uniquely so – or many other people have similar experiences.





* Example 1) 'You will tell lies to sell adverts or you'll be sacked and then I won't fill in a form to the DSS saying it was a redundancy, so you won't get any money at all for six weeks'. I was rather pleased when that company folded shortly afterwards.

Example 2) 'I am the chief executive' [actually, you were the secretary to the society] and I will have my son-in-law as editor, even if I have to oust the real editor by false means.' That was fun and, as a result of Buggin's Turn, it was me as MoC who led the subsequent dispute and strike, and saved his job. Please can I not have to go through anything like that again!

** You do not set up a company in a semi-rural environment in the north west and then use London-style, aggressive sales techniques to sell your product. It just puts people's backs up and makes them decide against buying, even when they know it's a good product and will benefit them. I found this out after I'd been made redundant, because I was subsequently employed by one potential customer that I had done the original work on.

*** I had a variety of bullying bosses over the years – mostly women. And much of the bullying was centred on my apparent inability to dress how they thought I should. I'm not talking about wearing inappropriate wear for the office, but it was just a convenient target. In the earlier case, it didn't matter if I followed the usual prescription for office wear of straight skirt, blouse and a small heel, somehow I could never pull it off to her satisfaction. In a later situation, I was almost barred from attending the TV BAFTA award ceremony (I'd been working on it) because the boss claimed that she was worried I'd dress in such a way as to bring the company into disrepute. Fortunately – because it turned out to be a memorable night – colleagues stuck up for me.

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Thu May 17, 2012 7:47 am  

Yet more evidence of those intransigent, militant unionistas Good to see Cable is taking all the plaudits and hardly a mention on any news reports of the efforts of "Red" Len McCluskey and Tony Woodley, despite them flying to the US to meet GM before Cable even booked a flight there.

Yet more evidence of those intransigent, militant unionistas Good to see Cable is taking all the plaudits and hardly a mention on any news reports of the efforts of "Red" Len McCluskey and Tony Woodley, despite them flying to the US to meet GM before Cable even booked a flight there.

[DaveO]

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Thu May 17, 2012 9:55 am  

cod'ead wrote: Yet more evidence of those intransigent, militant unionistas Good to see Cable is taking all the plaudits and hardly a mention on any news reports of the efforts of "Red" Len McCluskey and Tony Woodley, despite them flying to the US to meet GM before Cable even booked a flight there. I think the interesting thing is this deal was done without the need to introduce legislation to make the workforce "more flexible" i.e. peoples jobs less secure. In fact one of the main reasons there was a fear the factory would be closed in the first place was because it is already easier and cheaper to fire people in the UK than it is on mainland Europe.

cod'ead wrote: Yet more evidence of those intransigent, militant unionistas Good to see Cable is taking all the plaudits and hardly a mention on any news reports of the efforts of "Red" Len McCluskey and Tony Woodley, despite them flying to the US to meet GM before Cable even booked a flight there. I think the interesting thing is this deal was done without the need to introduce legislation to make the workforce "more flexible" i.e. peoples jobs less secure. In fact one of the main reasons there was a fear the factory would be closed in the first place was because it is already easier and cheaper to fire people in the UK than it is on mainland Europe.

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Thu May 17, 2012 10:03 am  

DaveO wrote:

I think the interesting thing is this deal was done without the need to introduce legislation to make the workforce "more flexible" i.e. peoples jobs less secure.

In fact one of the main reasons there was a fear the factory would be closed in the first place was because it is already easier and cheaper to fire people in the UK than it is on mainland Europe.

Absolutely spot on.