Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:23 pm  

Cronus wrote:

For the sake of forcing a General Election Labour are willing to land us with no deal. Think about that. Ignore your constituents, and push us into the worst possible scenario. Disgraceful.

You're snowflake faux outrage noted. Interesting though that you seem to be offended by a political party attempting to end 8 years of austerity - untold misery for millions, destruction of health & education services in the name of warped ideology - but accepting & supportive of the perpetrators of that misery.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:22 pm  

bren2k wrote:

But "in the long term" is such a fuzzy concept, that those people who will have to live through the "taking a hit" years are waking up to the fact that they've been taking enough hits for the past 8 years, and they're a bit sick of it - which is why public opinion has changed in my view; it actually wasn't the EU or immigrants - it was Tory austerity - and we've had enough thanks very much.

I admire Corbyn's approach to this - he was always playing a long game, and it appears to be paying off; because contrary to Mrs May's lies about her deal or no deal, there are other options. Meanwhile, a GE will sweep Labour into power, and a PV would see us Remain in the EU - which would be a win/win, and not the divisive two's up to democracy that many claim - as polling clearly shows now that the will of the people has changed.

Your definition of 'it' is flawed. 'It' was being tired of towns and cities and communities changing at an unrealistically rapid rate under the weight of a seemingly never-ending influx of immigrants. 'It' was paying in billions more than we get out. 'It' was the simply unsustainable numbers game: too many, too quickly. 'It' was any criticism of immigration being shouted down amid rabid accusations of racism. 'It' was being governed by unelected, unaccountable and unremovable bodies in Brussels, all with the same agenda. 'It' was the attitude of the EU leaders to the UK's criticism of their project. 'It' was the point-blank refusal of the EU to even consider reform in the face of serious concerns expressed by the 2nd largest contributor and one of their most important members. 'It' was the flawed idea that centralised power can work across 28 economically and socially unequal nations. 'It' was the flawed idea that centralised economic policy and rules can work across 28 economically and socially unequal nations. 'It' was seeing what the Euro project has done to the Mediterranean nations. 'It' was looking ahead and not liking where the EU wants to take their project. 'It' was seeing how the EU has failed time after time when things get critical. 'It' was watching the disasters of the Common Fisheries and Common Agriculture policies. The list could go on but that's a reasonable start.

Austerity, despite being the current Remainer catchphrase, was never 'it'.

I can see you've jumped on Labour's General Election strategy. So you think it's worth voting down the deal, landing us with no deal and forcing a GE? After years of reading your strong criticism of 'stupid Brexiteers' and the 'unacceptable' economic damage of Brexit, you'd willingly take the UK down the worst possible economic option. Hypocrite much?

Bear in mind Labour are very far from guaranteed to win a GE.

So, what are these 'other options' you speak of?

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:35 pm  

tigertot wrote:

*You're snowflake faux outrage noted. Interesting though that you seem to be offended by a political party attempting to end 8 years of austerity - untold misery for millions, destruction of health & education services in the name of warped ideology - but accepting & supportive of the perpetrators of that misery.

*Your

Offended? A strange choice of word, although certainly a word preferred by people of a particular mindset. FYI, I don't get offended. Or outraged for that matter. I'm a calm chap.

No, I'm dismayed by the blatant hypocrisy of a political party that, for years, has predicted an earth-shattering economic disaster in the event of a no deal - and now wants to take us precisely in that direction by voting down the deal on the table.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:07 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I am aware from your many previous posts that economics was barely on your list of reasons for leaving.
However, please explain where the "long term we'll be better off" comes from ?

There isn't a single forecast to indicate any economic advantage for being outside the EU (even in the long term), the guff spouted by Farage and Gove doesn't count. Could you please provide a link to ANY independent prediction of prosperity.

As for the "May" deal, just how far away from your hopes and expectations is it ?

The May deal isn't perfect, but it'll do a job. I've said all along we won't get the perfect deal - the EU isn't going to let a nation leave and give them the same benefits - but as long as we can continue to work with them we'll be fine.

Economies adapt, and the UK economy is resilient - indeed it has performed far better than most experts predicted post-referendum. Economies already adapt as markets boom and bust, as recessions come and go. The EU share of UK and global trade has been diminishing for decades while non-EU has boomed and indeed surpassed the EU from the UK's perspective. We now go out and seize that business without the restraints of the EU, whilst still trading with the EU. Any potential decrease in EU trade (likely to be marginal) can be offset by growth in non-EU trade.

The EU, meanwhile, can carry on with its political turmoil and growing dissatisfaction of many member nations, political parties and huge swathes of the populace, including the growth of far-right sentiment driven largely by their own policies. The UK will have made its decision and be in a stable place, able to reach decisions far more quickly and to trade independently.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:27 pm  

Cronus wrote:

No, I'm dismayed by the blatant hypocrisy of a political party that, for years, has predicted an earth-shattering economic disaster in the event of a no deal - and now wants to take us precisely in that direction by voting down the deal on the table.

I'm struggling to see which party you mean by that statement?

It sounds like both of 'em.

Either way, I suggest you vote for them next time, in homage, that's if you get your Utopian of "No Deal".

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:28 pm  

Cronus wrote:

The May deal isn't perfect, but it'll do a job. I've said all along we won't get the perfect deal - the EU isn't going to let a nation leave and give them the same benefits - but as long as we can continue to work with them we'll be fine.

Economies adapt, and the UK economy is resilient - indeed it has performed far better than most experts predicted post-referendum. Economies already adapt as markets boom and bust, as recessions come and go. The EU share of UK and global trade has been diminishing for decades while non-EU has boomed and indeed surpassed the EU from the UK's perspective. We now go out and seize that business without the restraints of the EU, whilst still trading with the EU. Any potential decrease in EU trade (likely to be marginal) can be offset by growth in non-EU trade.

The EU, meanwhile, can carry on with its political turmoil and growing dissatisfaction of many member nations, political parties and huge swathes of the populace, including the growth of far-right sentiment driven largely by their own policies. The UK will have made its decision and be in a stable place, able to reach decisions far more quickly and to trade independently.

Not often I agree with you , but that's pretty much ' it ' in a nutshell

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:46 pm  

Cronus wrote:

The May deal isn't perfect, but it'll do a job. I've said all along we won't get the perfect deal - the EU isn't going to let a nation leave and give them the same benefits - but as long as we can continue to work with them we'll be fine.

Economies adapt, and the UK economy is resilient - indeed it has performed far better than most experts predicted post-referendum. Economies already adapt as markets boom and bust, as recessions come and go. The EU share of UK and global trade has been diminishing for decades while non-EU has boomed and indeed surpassed the EU from the UK's perspective. We now go out and seize that business without the restraints of the EU, whilst still trading with the EU. Any potential decrease in EU trade (likely to be marginal) can be offset by growth in non-EU trade.

The EU, meanwhile, can carry on with its political turmoil and growing dissatisfaction of many member nations, political parties and huge swathes of the populace, including the growth of far-right sentiment driven largely by their own policies. The UK will have made its decision and be in a stable place, able to reach decisions far more quickly and to trade independently.

Here's where we have a fundamental difference of opinion.

Our trade with the EU has reached it's current level, not because the EU nations are X times better than other nations but, primarily because of our geographic proximity to one another, allowing us to make great use of just in time service to allow fast, efficient manufacturing with frictionless trade, using the relative strenghts of our closest neighbours.

We do of course trade furhter afield with China, India, Bangaldesh etc, etc but, whilst some of our trade with the EU could be replaced, much of our "set up" has occured to best service our largest export market.

THe one certainty is that, should trading within the EU become more problematic (post Brexit) many of the international companies, currently situated in the UK but servicing the EU export market will simply re locate to within the EU, not to mention our "jewel in the crown" finance sector, which the Germans and French would love to "steal" from us.

A few cheaper imposrts simply wont fill the hole.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:56 pm  

The Devil's Advocate wrote:

I'm struggling to see which party you mean by that statement?

It sounds like both of 'em.

Either way, I suggest you vote for them next time, in homage, that's if you get your Utopian of "No Deal".

What on earth makes you think no deal is my 'utopia'? Reading not your strong point?

If you're struggling to understand there's probably not much point in explaining. But let's give it a go: Labour's official position is to vote against the deal. The majority of Tories will vote for the deal.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:01 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Here's where we have a fundamental difference of opinion.

Our trade with the EU has reached it's current level, not because the EU nations are X times better than other nations but, primarily because of our geographic proximity to one another, allowing us to make great use of just in time service to allow fast, efficient manufacturing with frictionless trade, using the relative strenghts of our closest neighbours.

We do of course trade furhter afield with China, India, Bangaldesh etc, etc but, whilst some of our trade with the EU could be replaced, much of our "set up" has occured to best service our largest export market.

THe one certainty is that, should trading within the EU become more problematic (post Brexit) many of the international companies, currently situated in the UK but servicing the EU export market will simply re locate to within the EU, not to mention our "jewel in the crown" finance sector, which the Germans and French would love to "steal" from us.

A few cheaper imposrts simply wont fill the hole.

No argument with any of that.

And in view of this, one wonders why you're not lobbying Labour HQ to vote for the deal? After all, with a deal in place all of that can and will continue, largely unfettered. In the event of a no deal then yes, we risk losing a lot - and that is exactly what Labour is steering us towards in their attempt to provoke a General Election.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:36 am  

Cronus wrote:

No argument with any of that.

And in view of this, one wonders why you're not lobbying Labour HQ to vote for the deal? After all, with a deal in place all of that can and will continue, largely unfettered. In the event of a no deal then yes, we risk losing a lot - and that is exactly what Labour is steering us towards in their attempt to provoke a General Election.

The deal as I understand it, is typical Teresa May stuff, keep everything simmering but not actually face the issue.

Ireland has a stay of execution but, still remains the elephant in the room, we have a temporary customs union which we may or may not be able to extract ourselves from and we remain governed by EU law, whilst sacrificing our ability to affect it (our veto will no longer apply).

Do you think this is acceptable, because, it appears worse than we currently have.
As for lobbying Labour HQ, I believe they are only bothered about thie own political future and couldnt give a tinkers toss about whether we are in or out.
The have NEVER properly comitted to leave or remain and merely hoped thet the Tories would implode (still possible).
Immigration from the EU has understandably slowed and yet "controlled" immigration from elsewhere is already rising - maybe there was an agenda on this all along, there certainly was from certain sectors of the country.

The whole concept of LEAVE was built on a sham, driven primarily by some very wealthy right wing "Tories" who, have safely protected their wealth off shore and yet it iw they who want us to leave the EU and the masses are too dumb to realise that they were being sold a pup.