Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:59 pm  

Cronus wrote:

What on earth makes you think no deal is my 'utopia'? Reading not your strong point?

My apologies oh omnipotent one, there was me thinking you were a proponent of walking away from the dastardly E.U. or did you believe, like many of the buffoons, we would get an perfect divorce settlement?

Cronus wrote:

If you're struggling to understand there's probably not much point in explaining. But let's give it a go: Labour's official position is to vote against the deal. The majority of Tories will vote for the deal.

Again, thank you for your succinct reply, your condescension is only outweighed by your obvious outrage that things aren't going to plan.

Why should Labour M.P's vote for a rubbish deal just because it's the best the Tories could manage to cobble together, after two & a half years?

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:14 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Your definition of 'it' is flawed. 'It' was being tired of towns and cities and communities changing at an unrealistically rapid rate under the weight of a seemingly never-ending influx of immigrants. 'It' was paying in billions more than we get out. 'It' was the simply unsustainable numbers game: too many, too quickly. 'It' was any criticism of immigration being shouted down amid rabid accusations of racism. 'It' was being governed by unelected, unaccountable and unremovable bodies in Brussels, all with the same agenda. 'It' was the attitude of the EU leaders to the UK's criticism of their project. 'It' was the point-blank refusal of the EU to even consider reform in the face of serious concerns expressed by the 2nd largest contributor and one of their most important members. 'It' was the flawed idea that centralised power can work across 28 economically and socially unequal nations. 'It' was the flawed idea that centralised economic policy and rules can work across 28 economically and socially unequal nations. 'It' was seeing what the Euro project has done to the Mediterranean nations. 'It' was looking ahead and not liking where the EU wants to take their project. 'It' was seeing how the EU has failed time after time when things get critical. 'It' was watching the disasters of the Common Fisheries and Common Agriculture policies. The list could go on but that's a reasonable start.

If you seriously believe that the average Leave voter had even a fraction of that in mind when voting, you're hopeful, but deluded; immigration, cocking a snook at the establishment, and a steady diet of lies and rhetoric were the catalyst for this particular act of national self-harm, and I suspect you know that very well.

As for Labour's position - it certainly isn't this deal or no deal, and you do yourself a huge disservice by swallowing Mrs May's lies and repeating them here - it's simply not the case; the EU will talk again, and Labour already has a credible alternative, along the Norway model. How anyone who allies themselves with the Tories has the brass neck to talk about party politics when this whole mess is driven by the internal machinations of a fatally divided Tory party, I will never know - the death of irony!

Amusingly, whilst Mrs May still blows her racist dog-whistle, talking about ending free movement and EU citizens "jumping the queue," and sits in a select committee being humiliated by Yvette Cooper (of all people) over her wrongheaded attitude to migration - news emerges that a) ending EU migration will have a negative effect on the economy and b) whilst EU net migration has fallen, non EU migration has risen considerably - and looks set to continue to do so; a form of migration that as Home Sec, Mrs May *could* have controlled but failed to; and a form of migration that will incense the gammons even more, cos they're brown and black.

This Government is an absolute shitshow - the country is falling apart, the UN has branded their policies cruel and inhumane, and local councils are cancelling essential services due to lack of funds; meanwhile, we get to watch a group of Tory buffoons twist and turn like twisty turny things, in an attempt to appease all the lunatic factions of their party with a deal that won't satisfy anyone, and by the admission of their own Chancellor, will make us significantly worse off. It's time for a change.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:04 pm  

bren2k wrote:

If you seriously believe that the average Leave voter had even a fraction of that in mind when voting, you're hopeful, but deluded; immigration, cocking a snook at the establishment, and a steady diet of lies and rhetoric were the catalyst for this particular act of national self-harm, and I suspect you know that very well.

As for Labour's position - it certainly isn't this deal or no deal, and you do yourself a huge disservice by swallowing Mrs May's lies and repeating them here - it's simply not the case; the EU will talk again, and Labour already has a credible alternative, along the Norway model. How anyone who allies themselves with the Tories has the brass neck to talk about party politics when this whole mess is driven by the internal machinations of a fatally divided Tory party, I will never know - the death of irony!

Amusingly, whilst Mrs May still blows her racist dog-whistle, talking about ending free movement and EU citizens "jumping the queue," and sits in a select committee being humiliated by Yvette Cooper (of all people) over her wrongheaded attitude to migration - news emerges that a) ending EU migration will have a negative effect on the economy and b) whilst EU net migration has fallen, non EU migration has risen considerably - and looks set to continue to do so; a form of migration that as Home Sec, Mrs May *could* have controlled but failed to; and a form of migration that will incense the gammons even more, cos they're brown and black.

This Government is an absolute shitshow - the country is falling apart, the UN has branded their policies cruel and inhumane, and local councils are cancelling essential services due to lack of funds; meanwhile, we get to watch a group of Tory buffoons twist and turn like twisty turny things, in an attempt to appease all the lunatic factions of their party with a deal that won't satisfy anyone, and by the admission of their own Chancellor, will make us significantly worse off. It's time for a change.

I agree with all of the above apart from, I believe that Corbyn has been bloody awful in regards to Brexit.
Labour appear to be closet remainers, without the balls to admit it.
Their "6 tests" would never be satisfied by either the Tories or Labour themselves (should they ever get into power).
I agree that the whole thing is a shambles but, Labours position on this is far from coherant and should Mr Corbyn get his dream of becoming prime minister, what do you think that he and Labour will actually do.
His party line is "a Brexit for jobs and workers rights", which is pretty close to what Mrs May says she has offered.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:14 pm  

bren2k wrote:

If you seriously believe that the average Leave voter had even a fraction of that in mind when voting, you're hopeful, but deluded; immigration, cocking a snook at the establishment, and a steady diet of lies and rhetoric were the catalyst for this particular act of national self-harm, and I suspect you know that very well.

As for Labour's position - it certainly isn't this deal or no deal, and you do yourself a huge disservice by swallowing Mrs May's lies and repeating them here - it's simply not the case; the EU will talk again, and Labour already has a credible alternative, along the Norway model. How anyone who allies themselves with the Tories has the brass neck to talk about party politics when this whole mess is driven by the internal machinations of a fatally divided Tory party, I will never know - the death of irony!

Amusingly, whilst Mrs May still blows her racist dog-whistle, talking about ending free movement and EU citizens "jumping the queue," and sits in a select committee being humiliated by Yvette Cooper (of all people) over her wrongheaded attitude to migration - news emerges that a) ending EU migration will have a negative effect on the economy and b) whilst EU net migration has fallen, non EU migration has risen considerably - and looks set to continue to do so; a form of migration that as Home Sec, Mrs May *could* have controlled but failed to; and a form of migration that will incense the gammons even more, cos they're brown and black.

This Government is an absolute shitshow - the country is falling apart, the UN has branded their policies cruel and inhumane, and local councils are cancelling essential services due to lack of funds; meanwhile, we get to watch a group of Tory buffoons twist and turn like twisty turny things, in an attempt to appease all the lunatic factions of their party with a deal that won't satisfy anyone, and by the admission of their own Chancellor, will make us significantly worse off. It's time for a change.

If we had another vote I think the leave margin would be even greater - so it would interesting to see if either party has the guts to offer it up.

As discussed the lies were equally large on both sides - just the leave lies were more appealing.

Corbyn has been a leaver all his political life and as such it is reflected in his low-key support for the remain campaign.

Nobody could do a deal to suit everyone that is why for me no deal - with all its ramifications - would be the simplest exit strategy. The idea that we can't leave unless the EU say so simply wont get anywhere. Macron has already stated that he wants access to our shipping waters before he allows us to leave - really!!

Goods don't just move freely across the existing Irish border especially live stock - not sure why a physical border is needed at all.

The biggest single country we trade with is the US - a no deal has no impact on that I am more confident than most that leaving with no deal will not be as bad as many fear.

One thing is for sure if the vote is overturned without another referendum that will have a significant negative impact on the democratic process.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:57 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

If we had another vote I think the leave margin would be even greater - so it would interesting to see if either party has the guts to offer it up.

As discussed the lies were equally large on both sides - just the leave lies were more appealing.

Corbyn has been a leaver all his political life and as such it is reflected in his low-key support for the remain campaign.

Nobody could do a deal to suit everyone that is why for me no deal - with all its ramifications - would be the simplest exit strategy. The idea that we can't leave unless the EU say so simply wont get anywhere. Macron has already stated that he wants access to our shipping waters before he allows us to leave - really!!

Goods don't just move freely across the existing Irish border especially live stock - not sure why a physical border is needed at all.

The biggest single country we trade with is the US - a no deal has no impact on that I am more confident than most that leaving with no deal will not be as bad as many fear.

One thing is for sure if the vote is overturned without another referendum that will have a significant negative impact on the democratic process.

You throw in the USA as the biggest single country that we trade with but, just how is this relevent.
Our trade with them is circa 80 billion ?? and with the EU 500 billion. THe deal with hte EU is slightly more impotant or, perhaps you think we can do trade deale with seperate EU countries ??

The physical border in Ireland isn't currently neccessary but, it sure as hell used to be and some of those border towns were smugglers paradise.
IF we dont have a free trade deal with the EU, goods of all types, especially those with substantially different tax rates would be moved in both directions and one hell of a rate (just as they did back in the day).

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:45 pm  

The Devil's Advocate wrote:

My apologies oh omnipotent one, there was me thinking you were a proponent of walking away from the dastardly E.U. or did you believe, like many of the buffoons, we would get an perfect divorce settlement?

I've stated my view many, many times on here, including in the last day or so. Knock yerself out.

Again, thank you for your succinct reply, your condescension is only outweighed by your obvious outrage that things aren't going to plan.

Why should Labour M.P's vote for a rubbish deal just because it's the best the Tories could manage to cobble together, after two & a half years?

Pardon me, but I presumed an MP's responsibility was to their constituents and to doing the best for their constituency and country? Even ahead of political points scoring?

Explain to me how voting down the proposed deal and pushing us towards no deal is doing that...bearing in mind roughly 60% of Labour constituencies voted leave.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:49 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

The deal as I understand it, is typical Teresa May stuff, keep everything simmering but not actually face the issue.

As I said, it does a job. It's not perfect but it will do.

Ireland has a stay of execution but, still remains the elephant in the room, we have a temporary customs union which we may or may not be able to extract ourselves from and we remain governed by EU law, whilst sacrificing our ability to affect it (our veto will no longer apply).

Any temporary measure is fine by me...it's temporary. I'm confident we can survive a little transition period. Ultimately we won't be governed by EU law, although we will probably need to align with EU regulations for a favourable trade arrangement...which, shockingly, is precisely what we do now.

Do you think this is acceptable, because, it appears worse than we currently have.

Of course the deal is (economically) worse than we currently have. It was always going to be and I've always been honest about that. Where we differ is that in my opinion it's worth it...certainly in the long haul. The only question is the degree of impact.

As for lobbying Labour HQ, I believe they are only bothered about thie own political future and couldnt give a tinkers toss about whether we are in or out.
The have NEVER properly comitted to leave or remain and merely hoped thet the Tories would implode (still possible).

Yep, Labour clearly don't give a toss whether we get a deal or not - as long as they get a shot at a General Election, which I doubt they would win. They're willing to throw us on the bonfire for the chance of a GE. The odd thing about this strategy is I'm not entirely sure Corbyn is comfortable with it. I voted Labour once, never again.

Immigration from the EU has understandably slowed and yet "controlled" immigration from elsewhere is already rising - maybe there was an agenda on this all along, there certainly was from certain sectors of the country.

There will always be large numbers seeking to move to the UK. Yes, more needs to be done to bring the non-EU numbers down but controlling EU migration is a start. Ultimately immigration rules will need to drastically harden sooner rather than later. Net migration cannot continue at the levels we've seen since 1998.

The whole concept of LEAVE was built on a sham, driven primarily by some very wealthy right wing "Tories" who, have safely protected their wealth off shore and yet it iw they who want us to leave the EU and the masses are too dumb to realise that they were being sold a pup.

Oh please, we see lies and exaggerations in every political campaign. You give to much credence to the rhetoric of both sides, and not enough to the depth of feeling in many communities that has been building for 15-20 years.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:58 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

You throw in the USA as the biggest single country that we trade with but, just how is this relevent.
Our trade with them is circa 80 billion ?? and with the EU 500 billion. THe deal with hte EU is slightly more impotant or, perhaps you think we can do trade deale with seperate EU countries ??

The physical border in Ireland isn't currently neccessary but, it sure as hell used to be and some of those border towns were smugglers paradise.
IF we dont have a free trade deal with the EU, goods of all types, especially those with substantially different tax rates would be moved in both directions and one hell of a rate (just as they did back in the day).

This country is awash with class A drugs and guns that are smuggled mostly from outside of Europe - especially the drugs. You can put all the borders up you want but you will never stop smuggling - so just accept like we have with drugs that it will happen and in trying to stop it you will end up with diminishing returns to the monies you will need to invest to stop it i.e. you will not cover the cost of the border by the duty savings you will make. As the drugs have shown these people are far too clever for the authorities.


Differences in pricing for product on both sides of the border exists now - especially as both sides have different currencies - do you not think this is already being abused?

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:47 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Pardon me, but I presumed an MP's responsibility was to their constituents and to doing the best for their constituency and country? Even ahead of political points scoring?

Of course it is, however...

Cronus wrote:

Explain to me how voting down the proposed deal and pushing us towards no deal is doing that...bearing in mind roughly 60% of Labour constituencies voted leave.

The deal on offer must be rubbish, & not just the opposition M.P.'s think so, do you view them with the same contempt?

I've no idea how many Tory M.P.'s will fall back into line (what's the latest threat, cancel Christmas?) but the likes of Rees-Mogg, BoJo & Duncan Smith have no intention of changing their minds, surely for the sake of political point scoring.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:05 pm  

Interesting development - the Tories wheel out their grandstanding AG to yell at the opposition benches like a low-rent Brian Blessed in an am-dram production, defending the fact that he has put his party in contempt of Parliament by refusing to publish the full version of his legal advice, because it's "not in the public interest." A cross-party group responds by tabling a motion of contempt, and the speaker grants it time - so the Tories use parliamentary jiggery-pokery to have it kicked into the long grass.

This is desperate stuff - and for a party who claimed to want to take back sovereignty of the HoP, they're doing a pretty good job of riding roughshod over its powers in a desperate attempt to cling on to office.

Meanwhile, Ministers have been briefed to visit foodbanks, and duly do so over the weekend, posing for pictures like ghoulish trophy hunters and using copy/pasted 'approved' text to publicise their support for a societal ill that their own policies created. We really are living in the most turgid political period in living memory - I'm embarrassed to be part of it.