Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:06 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Really, do you believe that France or Germany would want to be controlled by the people that you speak of ?
The people that you speak of are in many ways, similar to our own civil service.

Somebody has to implement the will of the politicians or maybe you think that Merkel and Macron should "sign the cheques" ?

As for propping up less affluent nations - this is exactly what should happen in this type of organisation or would you prefer that Germany takes control or, perhaps Britannia should enslave them and bring them into the Commonwealth.

As for Banana Republic, I agree, it wont happen overnight but, the hard truth is that NOBODY knows what happened if we end up with "No Deal" and personally, I prefer to have a little more certainty in my life.

It's ok for Reece Mogg and Boris etc, their lives will still be mighty comfortable and as usual, those lower down the shaft will be squeezed yet again - some things will never change

France and Germany effectively run the EU most would agree with that - which country does the new boss man come from?

I didn't realise the EU was a charitable entity - there to bail out countries that cannot support themselves? Originally it was a trade collaboration which has simply got a far bigger agenda i.e. a federal Europe.

Listen to the likes of Guy Verhofstadt - his articulation of what the EU should be is why we need to extricate ourselves

You want certainty - really do you know what will happen tomorrow - no of course not so why is certainty suddenly so important?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:11 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

France and Germany effectively run the EU most would agree with that - which country does the new boss man come from?

I didn't realise the EU was a charitable entity - there to bail out countries that cannot support themselves? Originally it was a trade collaboration which has simply got a far bigger agenda i.e. a federal Europe.

Listen to the likes of Guy Verhofstadt - his articulation of what the EU should be is why we need to extricate ourselves

You want certainty - really do you know what will happen tomorrow - no of course not so why is certainty suddenly so important?

Ever heard of "the bigger picture".

Despite "our" rush to become Little Englanders, belonging to the EU does mean that the wealthier nations contribute more than the poorer countries, which is a fairly sensible way forward.
Over time this should allow those poorer nation to become a little stronger and eventually be in a position to contribute themselves.
I know this doesn't fit with a capitalist ethos and that some people are happy with poverty, just as long as they are ok and of course, the larger that the trading bloc becomes overall, the more power that they have when taking on their own trade negotiations - something that certain factions in the UK are utterly blind to or, too arrogant to realise the benefit of collective bargaining.
Also there are politics at work in enticing some of the old eastern bloc countries to "move west" but, we should probably leave that subject for another day.
As for what may happen tomorrow.
You are right to say that nobody knows for sure but, there is some history / track record and whilst not 100% certain, most people would be fairly comfortable in knowing where they will be week on week and it's a pretty weak argument to try and infer that staying within the EU has substantially less certainty to Brexit. It's an absolutely ridiculous comparison.
In Russian Roulette, you may not shoot yourself but, there is a bloody site more chance than if you dont pick up the gun.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:39 am  

Sal Paradise wrote: We were paying net 9bn? a year which would continue until we left - so how is we are paying a further £39bn post leaving? So we can continue to support the wasteful EU? Are you suggesting the EU have been helpful in trying to support an orderly withdrawl - seriously. May and her team were the worst team of negotiators imaginable and that is a significant contributory factor as why we are in the mess we are. The trade deal will be quick because the EU will suffer most - it will be an interesting discussion when the unelected council get pressure from the pesky members who pay their wages. The final reason is we have a bunch of MPs approx. 70% who will do everything they can to avoid implementing the democratic vote. It is typical of what happens when the public defy the politicians, look in Scotland they had a referendum that was supposed to be once in a generation the SNP didn't get the result they wanted so they are spoiling for another vote, same with regards to Brexit. What happens if we have another vote - no deal exit or leave and we vote for a no deal exit? No doubt we will continue having votes until the MPs get the result they want. The transition period was originally planned to run for 20 months, I think we’re effectively in it now and if the withdrawal agreement were passed it’d still run to the end of 2020. During that time, I assume the UK that distributions would continue as if we were a member, in which case switching to the net contribution wouldn’t be appropriate. Tbf, I don’t know that. The rest of the divorce agreement covers prior commitments. I’m not that familiar with the detail, but given you’re just asking questions I assume you’re not either. Tbf, it’s not hard to get up to speed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit_divorce_bill I think the EU’s response to the UK’s position has been pretty fair and rational, and certainly predictable. May’s negotiating position may have been poor, but the UK chose her (sort of), not the EU. It is a turd, but it is our turd and we have to take ownership of it. Whining on that are others won’t do what we tell them isn’t a great start for a supposedly newly independent nation. Also, Brexiteer MP’s votes were key to preventing an orderly withdraw - pretty much on, from their perspective, the best realistic terms they could have got.

Sal Paradise wrote: We were paying net 9bn? a year which would continue until we left - so how is we are paying a further £39bn post leaving? So we can continue to support the wasteful EU? Are you suggesting the EU have been helpful in trying to support an orderly withdrawl - seriously. May and her team were the worst team of negotiators imaginable and that is a significant contributory factor as why we are in the mess we are. The trade deal will be quick because the EU will suffer most - it will be an interesting discussion when the unelected council get pressure from the pesky members who pay their wages. The final reason is we have a bunch of MPs approx. 70% who will do everything they can to avoid implementing the democratic vote. It is typical of what happens when the public defy the politicians, look in Scotland they had a referendum that was supposed to be once in a generation the SNP didn't get the result they wanted so they are spoiling for another vote, same with regards to Brexit. What happens if we have another vote - no deal exit or leave and we vote for a no deal exit? No doubt we will continue having votes until the MPs get the result they want. The transition period was originally planned to run for 20 months, I think we’re effectively in it now and if the withdrawal agreement were passed it’d still run to the end of 2020. During that time, I assume the UK that distributions would continue as if we were a member, in which case switching to the net contribution wouldn’t be appropriate. Tbf, I don’t know that. The rest of the divorce agreement covers prior commitments. I’m not that familiar with the detail, but given you’re just asking questions I assume you’re not either. Tbf, it’s not hard to get up to speed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit_divorce_bill I think the EU’s response to the UK’s position has been pretty fair and rational, and certainly predictable. May’s negotiating position may have been poor, but the UK chose her (sort of), not the EU. It is a turd, but it is our turd and we have to take ownership of it. Whining on that are others won’t do what we tell them isn’t a great start for a supposedly newly independent nation. Also, Brexiteer MP’s votes were key to preventing an orderly withdraw - pretty much on, from their perspective, the best realistic terms they could have got.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:41 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

France and Germany effectively run the EU most would agree with that - which country does the new boss man come from?

I think most xenophobes would agree with you. After all, they've swallowed the biule & hatred from the Mail & Express for the last 40+ years.
Tusk is Polish, Juncker Luxembourgish. So what? Both were elected.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:54 am  

Can anyone remember a time pre-referendum, when any mainstream voices were decrying the EU and membership thereof? With the exception of Nigel Farage and a few crusty Tory nutjobs with misty-eyed fantasies about the Thatcher days, it was accepted as an imperfect but advantageous arrangement - particularly given that we'd managed to negotiate disproportionately favourable membership terms.

Cut to today - and 50% of your average man in the street, fat on a diet of propaganda and Facebook chicanery, is utterly convinced that the EU is the sole cause of everything they perceive to be wrong in their lives; school places, NHS shortages, wage suppression, kipper packaging and immigration, regardless of its source.

As someone else has already said - political genius, but it has fundamentally damaged the fabric of our society in such a deep and serious way, that it will take a generation to repair; doesn't feel like anyone has won anything to me - apart from the non-dom disaster capitalists, who are already making a killing on the ForEx markets.

[Bullseye]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:08 pm  

bren2k wrote:

As someone else has already said - political genius, but it has fundamentally damaged the fabric of our society in such a deep and serious way, that it will take a generation to repair

Repair?

As someone said recently not everyone that voted leave voted for an unaccountable single party state exploiting people's worst prejudices to maintain power indefinitely.

But it's what we'll get.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:49 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Ever heard of "the bigger picture".

Despite "our" rush to become Little Englanders, belonging to the EU does mean that the wealthier nations contribute more than the poorer countries, which is a fairly sensible way forward.
Over time this should allow those poorer nation to become a little stronger and eventually be in a position to contribute themselves.
I know this doesn't fit with a capitalist ethos and that some people are happy with poverty, just as long as they are ok and of course, the larger that the trading bloc becomes overall, the more power that they have when taking on their own trade negotiations - something that certain factions in the UK are utterly blind to or, too arrogant to realise the benefit of collective bargaining.
Also there are politics at work in enticing some of the old eastern bloc countries to "move west" but, we should probably leave that subject for another day.
As for what may happen tomorrow.
You are right to say that nobody knows for sure but, there is some history / track record and whilst not 100% certain, most people would be fairly comfortable in knowing where they will be week on week and it's a pretty weak argument to try and infer that staying within the EU has substantially less certainty to Brexit. It's an absolutely ridiculous comparison.
In Russian Roulette, you may not shoot yourself but, there is a bloody site more chance than if you dont pick up the gun.

Is there evidence that despite all the support of EU monies that any of these countries have improved sufficiently economically that they seen a reduction in the financial support they receive from the EU or is the period of recovery so long as to be idealogical rather than reality

Nobody has ever left the EU so all projections are thesis and the reality maybe different. I don't think anyone is saying it will better initially but as to the long term one thing is for sure it will not hit the economy like the financial crisis did. The BOE change their outcome forecast every quarter that's how certain they are of the outcome.

This isn't leaving the EU this is about democracy - are MPs there to implement the will of the people or simply to use their status as a platform to implement their own agenda. The idea that some Tory MPs will willing assist Corbyn into power shows how far the will of the people has become irrelevant. We could be in a position whereby Labour end up in power without even a vote - how does that work in a democracy. We have a speaker who also rides rough shot over everything to deliver his own agenda - its madness

Leaving the EU is another challenge - if the EU leaders had their way there wouldn't be MEPs there would simply be rules sent down from the ruling body which we all had to obey. That might be a price worth paying for seamless trade - as you said nothing is 100% certain

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:06 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Leaving the EU is another challenge - if the EU leaders had their way there wouldn't be MEPs there would simply be rules sent down from the ruling body which we all had to obey.

More hysterical, unsubstantiated xenophobic garbage. A poor man's Aaron Banks.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:16 am  

tigertot wrote:

More hysterical, unsubstantiated xenophobic garbage. A poor man's Aaron Banks.

Who would have thought we would have an unelected Labour government - that is a distinct possibility.

On the EU listen to the likes of Verhofstadt - they see the input of members states as a negative and as soon as it is stopped the better. He is not alone.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:38 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Is there evidence that despite all the support of EU monies that any of these countries have improved sufficiently economically that they seen a reduction in the financial support they receive from the EU or is the period of recovery so long as to be idealogical rather than reality

Nobody has ever left the EU so all projections are thesis and the reality maybe different. I don't think anyone is saying it will better initially but as to the long term one thing is for sure it will not hit the economy like the financial crisis did. The BOE change their outcome forecast every quarter that's how certain they are of the outcome.

This isn't leaving the EU this is about democracy - are MPs there to implement the will of the people or simply to use their status as a platform to implement their own agenda. The idea that some Tory MPs will willing assist Corbyn into power shows how far the will of the people has become irrelevant. We could be in a position whereby Labour end up in power without even a vote - how does that work in a democracy. We have a speaker who also rides rough shot over everything to deliver his own agenda - its madness

Leaving the EU is another challenge - if the EU leaders had their way there wouldn't be MEPs there would simply be rules sent down from the ruling body which we all had to obey. That might be a price worth paying for seamless trade - as you said nothing is 100% certain

You literally are just making stuff up.

Firstly, the newer members in the EU are definitely stronger economic nations within the EU.
You mention democracy and no doubt believe that our parliament should rule our country, which is a line trotted out by the Brexitiers and yet, you along with others are in support of Boris closing down Parliament to force through HIS version of Brexit - democracy eh ?

As for those at the top of The EU wanting rid of the MEP's to have a free reign
Which Tory rag have you been reading.

It's our own Prime Minister wanting to close the doors of Parliament and force his will upon the people.

What is absolutely clear is that we voted to leave without any knowledge of how to actually leave, especially in relation to Ireland and again, some of your "friends" on the Brexit side of the debate, would happily leave Ireland to it's sectarian extremes, rather than face reality.