Is this the same Tory party who opposed the minimum wage for donkeys years telling hs how it would hurt business (and their pals)?

And you call me childish - what evidence do you have of a claim that Tories have an inherent hatred of the lower classes - straight out of the Socialist worker!!. They couldn't win an election without the support of the working classes.

You only have to look at what happened when the unions had full powers - it brought down the Callaghan government. The NUM could bring the country to a halt at a whim and it did - something had to be done. The union idea is great in theory sadly in practise it is less good. You get the ludicrous situation where an agreeable solution cannot be agreed by one chapel because it might impact another chapel at a later date. Ineos showed how to deal with unions that get too big for their boots - McClusky thought he could hold the company to ransom - he soon found out who was in control - and it wasn't him.

Show me a Socialist state on anything like the scale of the UK that actually works? Sweden works because it encourages the private sector to generate the wealth - something Labour don't seem to want to encourage. It also has good natural resources inc. timber, metals etc. Where Sweden is very good is in skilling the workforce again I don't see any emphasis from Labour on this either. No wealth generation no progress.

Oh dear


So you rip up the legislation and start over, which just happens to mean no protection for workers rights etc.

You realise that, assuming that we leave, we wouldn't be under EU derestriction for future improvements in the workers/citizens rights. they just protect what is currently there - you know, so that those people cannot be abused or taken advantage of or, it the case of citizens, shipped "home" - which would apply to UK citizens in Spain etc.

I know that on occasion you like to argue for the sake of it but, you've lost the plot (again).

This, from a report about a Treasury Select Committee meeting in 2016:



That's the aim of the hard Brexiteer - reduce the cost of doing business in a way that negatively impacts workers, the environment and safety standards; playing very much to their base of the very wealthy, who want to get even more wealthy, and bollox to the consequences.

You have yet to show me one piece of workers legislation that has been negatively impacted with the WA as it is. You are simply assuming the worst with no evidence whatsoever - project fear all over. Do you genuinely believe us leaving the EU would result in mass repatriation of all citizens living in the EU - are you for real? If you think the EU is capable of that why are you keen to be closely aligned to such an organisation.

We see in France and latterly in Spain how they treat demonstrators - is that the standards you wish to maintain on abuse of citizens?

Of course I dont believe that there will be mass repatriation in both directions.
However, if the ecconomy starts to go south and the right wing of the Tory party, once again egged on by Farage (or worse), there could be a situation where the UK says "get out" and if you dont think this is possible, why wouldn't you want to just give those people on both sides, just a little comfort and security, why ?
There is only one reason and thet is to literally leave the door open and turn people into some kind of future bargaining chip.
It was there as a legally binding agreement, which Boris has moved into the "maybe" column. Again, WHY ?

I heard an interesting discussion about the EU Settlement Scheme on R4 yesterday; it was suggested that there are 3.5 million people who will need to apply, and that no scheme in history has ever had the level of sign-up that would be required to settle the status of that many people, in the timescale available.

The conclusion was that you are essentially writing the next Windrush scandal, into the statute book. Yay.

That cant be right because Gove says "we're ready"


Just like business being ready - I've never seen so much paperwork ! and that's before we've moved anything under the proposed new rules (or on WTO terms).
Clearly there should be a transition period (and a customs union would help) but the bravado displayed by those "running the country" is schoolyard stuff.

Here's a link for anyone with 10 minutes to spare.

I left the UK a decade ago and Brexit will have little impact on my now as I have just severed the last of my fiscal ties, but I'd be keen to hear the arguments against any of the issues stated in this piece. As I say, it's about a 10 minute read and it deals with the backstory, the evolution of the will to leave, the campaigns, the result and then the sudden realisation that maybe you weren't given all of the facts and reasons until it was too late. It also explains why May was jettisoned and why the glove puppet Boris was selected.

Sal Pareadise. I am particularly looking forward to your arguments on each points, but try and steer clear of your undoubted hatred of Trade Unions and concentrate on the real reason behind Brexit, Tax Avoidance

[urlhttps://www.quora.com/Why-are-Remainers-so-convinced-that-staying-in-the-European-Union-is-what-is-best-for-the-UK/answer/Barry-McGuinness-1?ch=1&share=a9239dc8&srid=AbYfT&fbclid=IwAR1vbZ3ylLF28V2QM_3UY_khe04M7XmJFORS5ms7GPc7tlAoWE46VGyR-Cg[/url

That's a fairly decent piece, even if its angle is (obviously) pro-remain.

however, it lost my attention when it blamed the leave vote on austerity and because the unpopular (although recently re-elected) David Cameron backed remain. It ignores many key points:

- People have seen their communities change enormously and rapidly with the influx of migrants, both EU and non-EU, and it hasn't always been good (you should check out central Leigh for a good example of acute problems with EU migrants). If you're a Europhile you probably think the locals are all racist and should just put up with it. I say why should communities have this change forced upon them?

- Population growth. Net migration HAS to come down. We simply cannot absorb everyone wanting to come here (which incidentally is probably in the tens of millions). Furthermore, migrants tend to have far higher birth rates than Brits and our elderly population is growing year on year. Unless we build new towns at an impossible rate, our towns and cities will be gridlocked within a few decades and unless we spend many billions more than planned, public services will collapse.

- However you angle it, we are governed by Brussels. I don't care if some of the lower tiers are elected and the upper tiers are kind of nominated in a questionable process - those at the top are too distant and frankly unnecessary. How many layers of government does anyone think we need?

- The ultimate EU goal. From those who first wrote of a united Europe to the Ventotene Manifesto to Jean Monnet and his 'Federation of Europe' and others who wrote post-WW2 of a super European state or United States of Europe - the goal is gradual erosion of the nation-state and absolute centralised power in Brussels. I want nothing of that ideology. The Eurozone, Schengen, centralised power base, even an EU anthem...any idea where this is going? No EU army yet, but Verhofstadt and von der Leyen - amongst others - have spoken openly of their desire for an EU armed force.

If the UK government is terrible they get voted out every few years. If the heads of the EU are terrible they...erm, anyone know?

- Worker's Rights. A total red herring. The UK has led the way in many worker's rights (granted, trade unions played a huge part). For example (stolen from various sources):
UK statutory paid holiday entitlement 28 days; EU 20 days.
UK National Minimum Wage Act 1998 – there is no EU minimum wage law (although individual countries have their own laws).
Maternity leave – UK: up to 52 weeks, EU: 14 weeks.
“Protection against sex, race and disability discrimination" in the UK pre-dates EU law.
Women’s rights: the Equal Pay Act, Abortion Act and Divorce Reform Act: all passed before the UK even joined the EU.
Sex Discrimination Act, Domestic Violence Act, Employment Protection Act, Race Relations Act – no EU involvement.
The EU has no NHS-style healthcare requirement. Of course many countries offer some similar systems but most people pay top-up private insurance.
In France, Germany and Ireland (and possibly others) you pay upfront to see your GP, and in other countries you pay for medical care upfront and get only partially reimbursed later.
- In fact the vast majority of EU laws are being written directly into UK law. This entire argument is moot.

And let's not forget the disastrous concept of the Eurozone has seen unemployment rocket - on average you’re twice as likely to be out of work in the Eurozone. Youth unemployment has been as high as 50% at times and is still devastating communities across Europe - part of the reason we see so many seeking to come to the UK.

I've always admitted we will be worse off upon leaving the EU - at first. To what degree depends on the agreements reached. However - life goes on, business will always find a way and while remainers might scoff, there are indeed opportunities outside the EU once out. Meanwhile of course we'll still deal with the EU as our closest trading partner both geographically and economically. That said, UK-EU imports and exports have been falling for decades in favour of emerging markets, and that will only continue.

As usual, Cronus, a well put argument and it was indeed an interesting 10 minute read on the link.

Where we fundamentally differ in our views, is the future on the outside of the EU.
Acknowledging that there will be some pain and loss of GDP (in the short term) our collective prosperity, following the initial backward step is far from certain and my personal opinion, still remains that without the EU, we will, as a single nation, be far, far weaker in the world.

We have little choice other than to cosy up to the USA and we will effectively become their "pet", having to jump when they shout and carry out even more of their dirty work.

We've all seen the way in which Trump operates and without any backing from the stronger partners in the EU, we become vulnerable and of course, the withdrawal agreement is only the first small hurdle in our departure.

The much coveted free trade deal would take heaps of pressure off our trading relationship and help the Irish situation immensely but, there is no guarantee of this happening and with Boris in charge, just like Trump, he is likely to burn bridges, rather than mend them.

Lets be clear, just like many politicians, Johnson, is bothered only about Johnson and he would sell his granny if there was some personal benefit for him.
Not a leader that I wish to follow (mind you, neither is Corbyn).