Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:48 am  

wigan_rlfc wrote:

One argument for mass immigration is that we have an aging population and a low birth rate. Why don't we encourage Brits to procreate? At the moment women are discouraged from having children. Middle class women are told that they should be focusing on their career rather than having kids. Poorer women are met with "Who's going to pay for those kids?" and "benefit scrounger".

If we had less migrants it would force wages up and more women could stay at home, especially if combined with a ban on non-residents owning residential property.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:53 am  

On the immigration thing - numbers will increase even more given the huge levels of unemployment being created by the EZ, the fact that English is often people's second language and as more people already have friends and family here. The EZ shows signs of creating even more unemployment and crises will come to light after 23 June. If we stay then numbers will increase - as they say "you ain't' seen nothing yet." That will lead to trouble and increased racism (for want of a better term).

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:37 am  

The more population to pay for future pensions argument just isnt viable , as Him explains you then need more in future generations and so on , what is needed is everybody earning more income , paying more direct and indirect taxes and so on

Him is also correct with the expansion of the EU with countries not suitable economically

With regards immigration of highly qualified people from poorer countries within the EU ( and outside ) surely this means those countries will fail to develop and fall further behind the major counties , compounding the issues , we need more home produced work and help the weaker countries build themselves and their welfare systems up

We see the argument for cheap labour from the EU , but also hear the argument for labour protection laws from the Eu , so what are we suggesting ? , we want British workers protected but ' slave ' labour from poor counties ?

If cheap labour wasn't available the farmers would have to pay more for British workers and the result would be ? , 20p more for a cabbage ? , disaster

As Martyn Lewis has suggested , economically NOBODY knows what will defiantly happen , everybody on both sides are guessing , there are no facts , just opinions

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:24 pm  

GUBRATS wrote: As Martyn Lewis has suggested , economically NOBODY knows what will defiantly happen, And yet history is littered with CAST-IRON evidence here, and here and here (plus a hundred or so other books I could mention) of people benefiting enormously from KNOWING what will happen before it does. Just how are we to reconcile the Great Sage of the Daily Mail's arguments with the above evidence? Simple, really. Like every halfwit who repeats this garbage, Lewis' mistake is not in stating that complex and chaotic systems are, by definition, unpredictable (a.k.a. stating the BLOODY OBVIOUS ) - it is in the implicit assumption that all economics is complex and chaotic. Insider trading is successful precisely because it transforms a non-deterministic (unpredictable) system into a deterministic (predictable) one. And insider trading (such as the type highlighted in Michael Lewis's "Flashboys") is but one in a very, very long line of techniques of "gaming" a system. there are no facts , just opinions You do realise this is a logical fallacy? If there are no facts then your fact that "there are no facts" is opinion ... not fact. Score: E- (Must try harder)

GUBRATS wrote: As Martyn Lewis has suggested , economically NOBODY knows what will defiantly happen, And yet history is littered with CAST-IRON evidence here, and here and here (plus a hundred or so other books I could mention) of people benefiting enormously from KNOWING what will happen before it does. Just how are we to reconcile the Great Sage of the Daily Mail's arguments with the above evidence? Simple, really. Like every halfwit who repeats this garbage, Lewis' mistake is not in stating that complex and chaotic systems are, by definition, unpredictable (a.k.a. stating the BLOODY OBVIOUS ) - it is in the implicit assumption that all economics is complex and chaotic. Insider trading is successful precisely because it transforms a non-deterministic (unpredictable) system into a deterministic (predictable) one. And insider trading (such as the type highlighted in Michael Lewis's "Flashboys") is but one in a very, very long line of techniques of "gaming" a system. there are no facts , just opinions You do realise this is a logical fallacy? If there are no facts then your fact that "there are no facts" is opinion ... not fact. Score: E- (Must try harder)

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:29 pm  

If you read Peter Liiley's recent article in the Daily Telegraph there are very good reasons to think things will be better out. if the EU barred us from the single market the would be in breach of international law provided we legislate appropriately as part of the leaving process. in other words the scare stories are just that. Our net contribution is equivalent to a 7 per cent tariff on everything, whereas average international tariffs are just 2.4 percent. In other words we are in effect paying well over the odds, if it's just about the single market as Cameron and Osborne pretend. In fact it's all about integration, joining the Eurozone and destruction of the values and systems that made this nation the most successful in history and allows others such as USA, Canada, Australia to enjoy good standards of living.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:32 pm  

A couple of interesting articles in the Mail today outlining the spending by the EU bureauocrats and the general feeling around the northern Labour heartlands , mirroring what I've been seeing when asking people how they are voting

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:24 pm  

GUBRATS wrote:

A couple of interesting articles in the Mail today outlining the spending by the EU bureauocrats and the general feeling around the northern Labour heartlands , mirroring what I've been seeing when asking people how they are voting

I've been wondering if the 'shy Tory' factor will also apply to some 'Brexiters'.

Really cannot understand why anyone would want to remain in such a failed, dysfunctional, misguided, arrogant and undemocratic organisation. Out for me.

Happy to report I've changed quite a few minds. So many people still feel uninformed and in my experience they tend towards the perceived safe option of 'remain'. After a good chat they soon move to 'leave'.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:58 pm  

Given the desperation of recent claims by Mr Cameron and the nature of the personal attacks we've witnessed in recent days , I predict a vote to leave with a 62% to 38% split

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:09 am  

Cameron is getting really desperate now. After allealling to the young, cheating with extending the online deadline and polls showing Brexit support still grieving he's now tryi g to frighten the elderly by saying state pensions will be affected. His fear campaign is so transparent that if people buy into it then I will despair. However, I do thin the shy Tory thing could be an issue. As it has become more acceptable for people to say they support Brexit I think remainers are shy of admitting how they may vote, I think it will be a close remain victory but it will destroy our future prosperity if it is.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:09 am  

Again as pointed out by Mr Farage today , before his ill fated attempt to get us a genuine better deal , he was saying " If we do leave the EU , we will still be fine "

Short memory there Dave