Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:31 am  

Or maybe Johnson just feels that Labours manifesto launch no longer requires him to justify his policies?

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:32 am  

Scarlet Pimpernell wrote:

I also note that the great debater Johnson has pulled out of a second televised debated against Corbyn on 4. I guess he fears more bouts of laughter from the audience.

He even refused to debate local MP Ali Milani, who is contesting his Uxbridge seat. I guess his repetition of "get Brexit done" didn't hit home in the way they hoped, so they've changed tack and chickened out of live debates.

On the manifesto - I quite like all the big adjectives that are being used; yes it is extraordinary, vast, colossal and all that jazz - because it's transformative, and you don't transform anything by being timid and tinkering at the edges.

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:49 am  

bren2k wrote:

He even refused to debate local MP Ali Milani, who is contesting his Uxbridge seat. I guess his repetition of "get Brexit done" didn't hit home in the way they hoped, so they've changed tack and chickened out of live debates.

On the manifesto - I quite like all the big adjectives that are being used; yes it is extraordinary, vast, colossal and all that jazz - because it's transformative, and you don't transform anything by being timid and tinkering at the edges.

Genuine question here Bren.
What response to you expect from the big businesses (employing over 250 staff) that will see their corporation tax bill increase and having to "chip in" 1% pa (rising to 10%) into a new pot to "share among the workforce" ?
The one absolute certainty is that they wont shrug their shoulders and say "oh, alright then".
Just as they do now, they will look for ways to mitigate the additional "cost" - whether this is "right" of "fair" wont come into it.
Similarly, anyone with heaps of personal wealth will "hide" their cash somewhere else to keep it away from the Chancellor and people dont tend to have that much wealth without employing very effective "accountants".

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:58 am  

I find it amazing how I hear how it would be worse under Labour, all I say is how do they know because after 9 years of the conservatives the country is not exactly thriving and at peace with itself. We are here because Cameron was so desperate to fight off UKIP and stay in power he promised a referendum which I believe was not mandatory.
I see human beings who are actually in work unable to rent a property or buy food for their families and have to live on the streets and go to the only booming industry food banks. Then there are schools asking parents for funds to buy equipment. In Wakefield the schools were run by an Academy who decided to remove themselves requiring the Council to take over.

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:10 am  

Scarlet Pimpernell wrote:

I find it amazing how I hear how it would be worse under Labour, all I say is how do they know because after 9 years of the conservatives the country is not exactly thriving and at peace with itself. We are here because Cameron was so desperate to fight off UKIP and stay in power he promised a referendum which I believe was not mandatory.
I see human beings who are actually in work unable to rent a property or buy food for their families and have to live on the streets and go to the only booming industry food banks. Then there are schools asking parents for funds to buy equipment. In Wakefield the schools were run by an Academy who decided to remove themselves requiring the Council to take over.

Nobody can argue with any of that and Cameron certainly has plenty to answer for.
The worst part of all this is that, when we do finally leave, the millions of people who voted "leave" are expecting the sunlight to come flooding in and everything to be wonderful and it's at this point that reality will really hit home.
We will be left as Trump's lap dogs, begging for treats.
Corbyn and co just haven't realised that it's not their own voters who need to be on board with his plan, Labour need to entice a huge chunk of Libdem and Tory voters to join their revolution and I'm sorry but, it's just not going to happen and all those who followed Farage's "dream" are going to be very, very disappointed and will actually be shat on even more by a Tory Party with an overall majority.
Depressing doesn't even begin to cover how things are unfolding.

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:17 am  

bren2k wrote:

He even refused to debate local MP Ali Milani, who is contesting his Uxbridge seat. I guess his repetition of "get Brexit done" didn't hit home in the way they hoped, so they've changed tack and chickened out of live debates.

On the manifesto - I quite like all the big adjectives that are being used; yes it is extraordinary, vast, colossal and all that jazz - because it's transformative, and you don't transform anything by being timid and tinkering at the edges.

Ali Milani isn't an MP. What he is though, is antisemitic.

But I digress. Not debating is a sensible decision. There's every chance the 'tolerant' left in the room would spend their time heckling and booing, which obviously wouldn't look great.

Anyway the live leader 'debates' are utterly pointless. I've said it since the first (was it 2010?). They're just the same soundbites trotted out in Parliament and in campaign speeches. Nothing is proven and virtually nobody changes their mind. All they sometimes show is who can perform best on TV and who might get flustered.

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:33 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Genuine question here Bren.
What response to you expect from the big businesses (employing over 250 staff) that will see their corporation tax bill increase and having to "chip in" 1% pa (rising to 10%) into a new pot to "share among the workforce" ?
The one absolute certainty is that they wont shrug their shoulders and say "oh, alright then".
Just as they do now, they will look for ways to mitigate the additional "cost" - whether this is "right" of "fair" wont come into it.
Similarly, anyone with heaps of personal wealth will "hide" their cash somewhere else to keep it away from the Chancellor and people dont tend to have that much wealth without employing very effective "accountants".

I am one of those businesses - and like any prudent operator, we've looked at the potential impact of that eventuality; it will ultimately mean lower dividends for the shareholders, of which I am one, but will mean a significant increase in the engagement and productivity of a workforce who will have a much greater stake in the success of the business - and there are plenty of case studies to demonstrate that employee ownership has really positive impacts on a business, such as reduced staff t/o, lower rates of sickness absence and higher productivity. We've also looked at potential opportunities for new ventures, based on the infrastructure and green technology investment that Labour are promising.

This stuff is not easy - and it will require a shift in attitude amongst those people who have previously made hay as a result of unfettered capitalism and an obsession with growth in absolute terms; but for me, the country is in such a parlous state, with record numbers of homeless, people experiencing in-work poverty, children going to school hungry, schools begging for basic resources and the NHS falling apart before our eyes - that only a radical solution will have any impact.

And lets not forget, that for all the panic about Labour's spending plans, they really only take us to parity with many other very successful European economies.

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:39 am  

Cronus wrote:

Ali Milani isn't an MP. What he is though, is antisemitic.

For someone who gets so exercised about the playing of the racist card, you've pulled that one out with surprising alacrity!

I'm satisfied that his remarks as a 17 year old student were based on an over-enthusiastic and naïve interpretation of the BDS movement; he's apologised sincerely and unreservedly, and has demonstrated that he's learnt from that mistake.

Btw - criticism of Israel is not antisemitic; unless you're conflating Israel as representative of all Jews, which is in itself, by the EHRC definition, antisemitic?

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:10 pm  

Cronus wrote: More Labour LIES. (or Abbott has done the maths) Paul Johnson, the director of the (independent) Institute for Fiscal Studies, says Labour’s claim 95% of taxpayers would not need to pay more under its spending plans is simply not credible. Some strong words in his statement. This Paul Johnson https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8305 ?

Cronus wrote: More Labour LIES. (or Abbott has done the maths) Paul Johnson, the director of the (independent) Institute for Fiscal Studies, says Labour’s claim 95% of taxpayers would not need to pay more under its spending plans is simply not credible. Some strong words in his statement. This Paul Johnson https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8305 ?

Re: More Tory Lies : Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:14 pm  

tigertot wrote: This Paul Johnson https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8305 ? I think that they call that Ying and Yang

tigertot wrote: This Paul Johnson https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8305 ? I think that they call that Ying and Yang