Re: The Guides : Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:00 pm  

wigan_rlfc wrote:

Wasn't guiding founded with a Christian ethos at heart?

Yes but society has moved on.
Whilst the basic tenets of the morality and philosophy apparently preached by Jesus are generally accepted nowadays (by some because of their religion but by many more via their own conscience) the superstition and belief in a deity are no longer mandatory and the Guides have changed the oath accordingly without making it in any way unchristian.
They are to ba applauded for that.

Re: The Guides : Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:45 am  

Dally wrote:

Mintball's post makes the real point. People say they are ethical, have morality, etc but as I have speculated umpteen times, that's more often than not because they or their parents were exposed to a degree of religion and of course our national and continental "culture" is Christian - a religion. Totalitarian regimes suppress religion for a reason - as it imbues a moral resistance to the states ideology...

On this basis, these islands, pre-Christianity, must have never seen any 'ethical' or 'moral' behaviour. Altruism will not have existed either, since as the chief rabbi claims, that is a result of religion.

Or were the pre-Christian religions that existed across Europe, which had a very, very different ethos from the Judeo-Christian tradition that some people tend to imagine is the only one that has existed in Europe or the only religious culture that has ever existed alongside something that could be viewed as 'civilisation'.

Dally wrote:

As more generations are brought up without the "moral compass" of religion so our society will tend towards break down. Except, I do not believe it will because there will be a religious revival to fill the void.

Out of curiosity, then, what theological/religious beliefs do you hold personally, and how often do you attend a place of worship?

Re: The Guides : Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:57 am  

Dally wrote:

... Totalitarian regimes suppress religion for a reason - as it imbues a moral resistance to the states ideology...

Maybe but I think totalitarian regimes suppress religion largely because religion is a power base.

Re: The Guides : Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:09 am  

El Barbudo wrote:

Maybe but I think totalitarian regimes suppress religion largely because religion is a power base.

It's worth noting that some totalitarian regimes have supported and been supported by organised religion.

It could also be said that some religions at least push behaviours and attitudes that most people in modern, civilised nations consider backward at best and reprehensible and utterly immoral at worst.

Re: The Guides : Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:22 am  

Dally wrote:

...People say they are ethical, have morality, etc but as I have speculated umpteen times, that's more often than not because they or their parents were exposed to a degree of religion and of course our national and continental "culture" is Christian - a religion.

If you want to acknowledge that as an influence, then you must also accept that Christianity is itself a conglomeration of influences from prior religions and cults in terms of ethics, morals, rituals and myths adapted to suit the Christian story.
The old testament (much of which Jesus preached against, hence the antagonism from and fear of power-base-shift by the established order at the time but which still seems to form part of Christian belief), Dionysus (virgin birth on Dec 25th, changing water into wine, a divine saviour who was the son of God, resurrection and ascension into heaven after 3 days), paganism in Europe (Easter, mistletoe etc)

Just add in the monotheism ... and there's Christianity.

Re: The Guides : Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:26 am  

El Barbudo wrote:

... Just add in the monotheism ... and there's Christianity.

... the entirely deliberate decision by the Catholic church to increase the importance of Mary as a way of 'replacing' the goddesses of pagan religions.

One could almost suggest that the Trinity does something similar, creating something closer to a pantheon of gods – and then there are all the saints.

There's a considerable way in which Catholicism in particular is not really a monotheistic religion.

Re: The Guides : Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:32 am  

Mintball wrote:

There's a considerable way in which Catholicism in particular is not really a monotheistic religion.

This makes it all lovely and clear:

Re: The Guides : Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:05 am  

Re: The Guides : Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:11 am  

Mintball wrote:

... the entirely deliberate decision by the Catholic church to increase the importance of Mary as a way of 'replacing' the goddesses of pagan religions.
One could almost suggest that the Trinity does something similar, creating something closer to a pantheon of gods – and then there are all the saints.
There's a considerable way in which Catholicism in particular is not really a monotheistic religion.

Indeed, so instead of, say, Zeus as top god and the others as subordinate gods, or a series of gods each of whom has designated and specific powers of effect, we have the Abrahamic God as top god and all the saints as people to whom we can pray as though they have the same powers as the top God or a subset therof.
Yes, I agree, it's polytheism with a fudging get-out clause.

Rock God X wrote:

This makes it all lovely and clear

Aye ... and the Trinity (which is such a central tenet) wasn't mentioned by Jesus, was debated for the first time hundreds of years after his demise (or ascension a la Dionysus) and wasn't actually agreed by the "whole" church until Constantine knocked their heads together in 300-odd AD to get them to come up with a version they all agreed with.

Re: The Guides : Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:24 pm  

I'm confused. Does this mean that Wakefield Trinity have three players in every one position, or that they don't exist?