Mandela was a great man, by most people's definition. He is one of the iconic and revolutionary figures of the 20th century whose personal impact was felt across the world. What has to happen to achieve "greatness", in your definition?

The overwhelming majority of the people who lived on the Falls Road during the Troubles never killed anybody.

One who did change his mind was Michael Howard. He was pro capital-punishment until as Home Secretary he was in office when convictions were quashed for IRA bombings, the Birmingham-six ones I think. He had the sense to admit all the people now proved innocent would have been most likely dead had is previous pro-capital punishment view prevailed.

The fact they were convicted the way they were probably had something to do with it as it no doubt proved to him the execution of justice (no pun intended) could be far from perfect. Just because jury convicts doesn't mean they were not seriously misled.

Why he couldn't work this out before the Birmingham-six were freed I don't know as potentially topping the innocent is the most obvious flaw with capital punishment but he least he did change his view eventually.

It was just Mensch being Mensch.

It all kicked off when someone reminded her of a tweet of hers in April after Thatcher's death:

Louise Mensch ‏@LouiseMensch 8 Apr

[iPygmies of the left so predictably embarrassing yourselves, know this: not a one of your leaders will ever be globally mourned like her.[/i

She then replied that she didn't consider Mandela to be "of the left"

This was swiftly followed by reminders of the ANC's political affiliations and support for trades unions etc.

More waffle from Mensch and then she went unusually quiet after someone posted a couple of photographs:

I think you will find it is in chaos already.

A young black South African girl who worked in a clients office told me that the reason she and her family left was because of the violence, corruption and (still) the lack of prospects for a black kid from a poor background. One evil regime has been replaced by another, the difference was that the former regime was white and treat blacks appallingly, while the new is mainly blacks shafting their own.

This.......everyone expected him to retaliate,even some of his cabinet but he refused too.Didn't Clinton once say that when Mandela spoke you listenend as he had earns that right,the world has lost a great man.

Women who supported their men, liberated and politically educated themselves during a strike in 1984.
That would bear more relevance to me.
I admire Mandela also.

Like Gerry and Martin?

Oh, I have a pretty high regard for both of them, for precisely that reason.

I similarly have a high regard for John Major for taking what was an equally courageous step, politically, to move away from the idea of seeing the Northern Ireland situation as only something that could be 'won' by military force, and moving towards negotiation.

In the case of Adams and Martin, they would quite possibly have been murdered if things hadn't gone as they have. In Major's case, it could have been political suicide – there was much opinion against it – but it should be considered a very good legacy.

In the South African situation, one should also remember that de Klerk – no matter how he'd started out – made the right decisions to follow the right, very different path.

I think it was pretty easy for him in the end.
When a regime is so oppressively, overtly, indecent, you run out of options of places to be able to run.
I wonder what Ajw's opinion on his heroines inability to condemn said regime is?

The step still needs to be taken and more than once in human history, leaders in such a position have chosen the path of increased violence. There was vast opposition to what happened.



And this is also why I will not condemn, out of hand, a violent response.

It would have been lovely for all if South Africa had not been a situation where violence was required to bring about change, but given the nature and behaviour of the ruling party – a regime that shot unarmed schoolchildren calling for the right to a decent education – that was not a possibility.

To suggest otherwise is a bit like saying that, if only we'd used the right words, we didn't really need to go to war against Hitler.

In the case of South Africa, both the armed struggle and sanctions contributed to the end result.

And the greatest blame for that can be fairly laid at the feet of European colonialists.

We fought and bought/sold the whole continent and carved it up to suit ourselves, without a thought to tribal or clan boundaries. Once the European govenors buggered off home, leaving them with some form of our democracy and judicial systems, there's little wonder most of the continent has, over time spiralled into chaos

I fear you ain't seen nothing yet. It has always been my fear that wjen Mr Mandela died things would spiral down. The fact he lived so long has helped but I am not so sure how things develop.