Re: Donald Trump : Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:16 pm  

PCollinson1990 wrote:

Sin Bin needs re-naming as "Left Wing Feelings", full of apologists, Corbynites and xenophobes.

You do realise that a left wing xenophobe is an oxymoron? Thought not

Regards

King James

Re: Donald Trump : Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:01 am  

Lebron James wrote:

You do realise that a left wing xenophobe is an oxymoron? Thought not

Regards

King James

you do realise you can be left wing, but only believe in liberalism for a certain section of society?

thought not

condascending poster

Re: Donald Trump : Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:23 am  

When people like trump gain power it’s mostly because political parties treat voters with contempt. Whilst I don’t agree with trump you can see why people voted for him.
If your job and industry has collapsed and moved overseas, you obviously see the need to vote for someone who gives you hope and optimism. Sadly on balance he won’t be able to succeed, trade wars never work so people will become more and more bitter. Probably a large section of brexit voters in the north of England voted that way ,because successive governments of both persuasions have ignored the north of England. As in the rust belt of America vast swathes of industry have vanished.
Whilst for years London and the south east have prospered.

Re: Donald Trump : Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:23 am  

Lebron James wrote:

You do realise that a left wing xenophobe is an oxymoron? Thought not

Regards

King James

Most of Comrade Cob's closest buddies have a strong whiff of xenophobia and racism.

Re: Donald Trump : Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:35 am  

Cronus wrote:

Most of Comrade Cob's closest buddies have a strong whiff of xenophobia and racism.

Quite correct. Old jezza refers to Hamas as his friends , this organisation openly admits to wanting to wipe Israel from the face of the earth. Jezza has always turned out with stop the war protests, quite laudable until you discover that they only protest against UK/USA actions. Somehow they seem to go missing when his soviet comrades go to war.

Re: Donald Trump : Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:33 pm  

Backwoodsman wrote:

Quite correct. Old jezza refers to Hamas as his friends , this organisation openly admits to wanting to wipe Israel from the face of the earth. Jezza has always turned out with stop the war protests, quite laudable until you discover that they only protest against UK/USA actions. Somehow they seem to go missing when his soviet comrades go to war.

Hamas refuse to recognise the state of Israel under the current borders, they have have never directly said they want to wipe Israel off the map, that was the loon from Iran about 13 years ago.

As for the Russia problem, I find all the sabre rattling pointless. Of course this was Russia, but there's absolutely nothing we can do about it, and Putin knows it. The uk has to face up to being a global small fry.

Re: Donald Trump : Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:55 am  

Charlie Sheen wrote:

Hamas refuse to recognise the state of Israel under the current borders, they have have never directly said they want to wipe Israel off the map, that was the loon from Iran about 13 years ago.

Incorrect. Hamas' own charter called for the destruction of Israel and the killing of all Jews until very recently.

As for the Russia problem, I find all the sabre rattling pointless. Of course this was Russia, but there's absolutely nothing we can do about it, and Putin knows it. The uk has to face up to being a global small fry.

Rubbish. Sabre rattling is verbals or a display of military assets. Assassination attempts using an illegal nerve agent on British soil amounts to rather more than that.

Or do you think the UK and the world should sit by compliantly while Russia use radioactive materials and (illegal) chemical weapons on foreign soil? And almost kill a British police officer? Actually if you're a Corbynite you probably do.

The West has trodden softly around this issue for too long, but if you haven't noticed we are being unequivocally supported by our friends and allies (including the EU). Russia is isolated and more than a little surprised by the support for the UK.

There is something we can do about it. Russians despise weakness and respect strength. But what they value above all else are their roubles. We increase sanctions, seize assets and expel key Russians, including diplomats and anyone connected to Putin. Wealthy Russians have billions tied up in London. Hit them in the pocket and they'll soon start complaining to their friend at the top.

Re: Donald Trump : Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:12 am  

Cronus wrote:

Russians despise weakness and respect strength. But what they value above all else are their roubles. We increase sanctions, seize assets and expel key Russians, including diplomats and anyone connected to Putin. Wealthy Russians have billions tied up in London. Hit them in the pocket and they'll soon start complaining to their friend at the top.

Peter Hitchens, with whom I have little fellow feeling ordinarily, was good on this stuff on QT last night; he was keen to point out that what we're railing against here is a small cadre of gangsters who surround Putin, because he's created a situation in which to be mega-wealthy in Russia requires you to be his friend and ally; so I highly doubt that the vast majority of Russians can be categorised as despising weakness and respecting strength - or of only caring about roubles - what they probably want is social justice, fairness, and to stop being ripped off by the kleptocratic Putin regime.

So I say again - if we all agree that the city of London is awash with dirty Russian money, why have the Tories resisted the Magnitsky powers that could freeze and seize those assets and make their lives very uncomfortable? And why is there a wall of noise defending Russian donations to the Tory party, when we have the wife of a Putin minister paying hundreds of thousands to hobnob with the Foreign Secretary and the Defence Minister?

The Tories are keen to round on Corbyn for suggesting that international protocols should be followed to prove Moscow's involvement in the Salisbury case - but the alternative is the unedifying and embarrassing spectacle of a kangaroo court, proclaiming guilt and issuing sanctions, before the police and security services have done their work; meanwhile, Boris Johnson is happy to liken Putin to Hitler - which is deeply insulting to a nation who lost 25 million people fighting against Hitler, and grist to the mill for Moscow to spin this whole thing as a slight on all Russians - which only strengthens their position.

Statesmanship is the order of the day here - and our Government seems incapable of that; aside from the walking disaster area that is Boris Johnson, we have the Sec of Defence saying the Russians should "shut up and go away," and the inappropriately named party chairman on Question Time last night, saying that there is "strong evidence that Moscow is responsible" for the attack, then admitting that he hasn't read the briefings. It's a shambles.

Re: Donald Trump : Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:23 am  

bren2k wrote:

Peter Hitchens, with whom I have little fellow feeling ordinarily, was good on this stuff on QT last night; he was keen to point out that what we're railing against here is a small cadre of gangsters who surround Putin, because he's created a situation in which to be mega-wealthy in Russia requires you to be his friend and ally; so I highly doubt that the vast majority of Russians can be categorised as despising weakness and respecting strength - or of only caring about roubles - what they probably want is social justice, fairness, and to stop being ripped off by the kleptocratic Putin regime.

So I say again - if we all agree that the city of London is awash with dirty Russian money, why have the Tories resisted the Magnitsky powers that could freeze and seize those assets and make their lives very uncomfortable? And why is there a wall of noise defending Russian donations to the Tory party, when we have the wife of a Putin minister paying hundreds of thousands to hobnob with the Foreign Secretary and the Defence Minister?

So on the one hand you think most Russians want justice and fairness, and on the other you assume all Russians in London are corrupt and want to seize assets and make their lives uncomfortable? They're not all guilty of corruption and not all in bed with Putin, hence why so many display the inconvenient habit of dropping dead.

As I said before, the rules surrounding donations are clear. Unless the person isn't on the Electoral Register, or the funds are proven to have been obtained by illegal means, there is no problem. People of all sorts of origin donate to all parties. So the wife of an Russian ex-minister donated? How do you think Putin views Russian citizens who moved to the UK, most likely became British Citizens, and are donating to the UK government? As you said, oligarchs in Russia tend to be in his circle. Those living elsewhere are often doing so for good reason.

Magnitsky has only been in place for 12 months. There are investigations in progress but it seems early to be expecting huge results. Due process must be followed.

The Tories are keen to round on Corbyn for suggesting that international protocols should be followed to prove Moscow's involvement in the Salisbury case - but the alternative is the unedifying and embarrassing spectacle of a kangaroo court, proclaiming guilt and issuing sanctions, before the police and security services have done their work; meanwhile, Boris Johnson is happy to liken Putin to Hitler - which is deeply insulting to a nation who lost 25 million people fighting against Hitler, and grist to the mill for Moscow to spin this whole thing as a slight on all Russians - which only strengthens their position.

Statesmanship is the order of the day here - and our Government seems incapable of that; aside from the walking disaster area that is Boris Johnson, we have the Sec of Defence saying the Russians should "shut up and go away," and the inappropriately named party chairman on Question Time last night, saying that there is "strong evidence that Moscow is responsible" for the attack, then admitting that he hasn't read the briefings. It's a shambles.

Labourite rant over? It can't be that much of a kangaroo judgement or shambles when so many other countries are supporting us - indeed the EU has just stated their 'unqualified solidarity' and withdrawn its ambassador to Russia. Various countries are considering expelling Russian diplomats. Such actions are not taken lightly, and point to a successful investigation and highly conclusive evidence.

But of course, you know better.

The time for soft talk is over. So the Russians are 'offended', bless their delicate little souls. Who cares? Screw them. It's about time they were stood up to. You call Putin's regime kleptocratic yet you want to tiptoe around them? Is that you Jeremy?

Re: Donald Trump : Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:20 pm  

Cronus wrote:

So on the one hand you think most Russians want justice and fairness, and on the other you assume all Russians in London are corrupt and want to seize assets and make their lives uncomfortable? They're not all guilty of corruption and not all in bed with Putin, hence why so many display the inconvenient habit of dropping dead.

Where did I say that they all were? I very specifically referred to a small cadre of gangsters who surround Putin - and made a clear distinction between them, and ordinary Russian people. I couldn't have been clearer about that.

Cronus wrote:

As I said before, the rules surrounding donations are clear. Unless the person isn't on the Electoral Register, or the funds are proven to have been obtained by illegal means, there is no problem. People of all sorts of origin donate to all parties. So the wife of an Russian ex-minister donated? How do you think Putin views Russian citizens who moved to the UK, most likely became British Citizens, and are donating to the UK government? As you said, oligarchs in Russia tend to be in his circle. Those living elsewhere are often doing so for good reason.

And as I said before, that's a mealy-mouthed Boris Johnson defence, which holds no water; if there was a genuine desire to be tough on dirty Russian money, the Tories would be hell-bent on removing any whiff of corruption - but they're not. And it goes deeper than that, since the money that comes here to be laundered and spent has created a small industry for property developers, fund managers and wealth management types, many of whom are natural Tory supporters and its most generous donors.

Cronus wrote:

Magnitsky has only been in place for 12 months. There are investigations in progress but it seems early to be expecting huge results. Due process must be followed.

Your party has actively opposed full Magnitsky powers though - which the US introduced in 2012; you will of course recall Hugh Powell entering no 10 with a list of responses to the invasion of Ukraine, specifically ruling out trade sanctions or denying access to London's financial system; I wonder why?

Cronus wrote:

Labourite rant over? It can't be that much of a kangaroo judgement or shambles when so many other countries are supporting us - indeed the EU has just stated their 'unqualified solidarity' and withdrawn its ambassador to Russia. Various countries are considering expelling Russian diplomats. Such actions are not taken lightly, and point to a successful investigation and highly conclusive evidence.

But of course, you know better.

The time for soft talk is over. So the Russians are 'offended', bless their delicate little souls. Who cares? Screw them. It's about time they were stood up to. You call Putin's regime kleptocratic yet you want to tiptoe around them? Is that you Jeremy?

That being the case, why the rush to judgement? You're all over the place on this one - you tried (unsuccessfully) to label me as xenophobic a couple of days ago - and now you're displaying exactly that kind of behaviour yourself; remember, this is not about 'Russians' - this is about *some* Russians - primarily state actors and those close to them - and the best way to deal with them, surely, is to follow the due process of international protocols, provide proof that is beyond reasonable doubt, and then use all the powers we have that will hurt Putin and his people (i.e proper Magnitsky powers, instead of the Tory Magnitsky-Lite version) - I don't see what's difficult or controversial about that, and it makes much more sense, as it removes the ability for the Kremlin to spin this as further evidence of the West demonising Russia, which will galvanise support for Putin and further embolden him.

The last time we allowed parliament to drag us into a conflict based on less then complete information, things didn't turn out so well - so yes, I'm completely lock-step with Corbyn on this one; he was right the last time.