Re: getting schools open : Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:57 am  

silver2 wrote:

Do you have a reliable reference to underpin that statement?

The risks are known - there are several independent reports out there yet the unions continue to advise member not to return to work. These are kids and young people you will never create the 100% safe environment that the unions are requesting until you get a vaccine. So what is the solution - its simple really - you accept the risk, minimise them wherever possible and get back to educating children - if you are not prepared to do that then perhaps a career change is for you?

Re: getting schools open : Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:18 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

These are kids and young people you will never create the 100% safe environment that the unions are requesting until you get a vaccine.

So, where's the evidence that the unions are demanding a 100% safe environment?
- and whilst were at it, wheres the evidence that this government knows what they are doing wrt the virus?

Re: getting schools open : Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:20 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The risks are known - there are several independent reports out there yet the unions continue to advise member not to return to work. These are kids and young people you will never create the 100% safe environment that the unions are requesting until you get a vaccine. So what is the solution - its simple really - you accept the risk, minimise them wherever possible and get back to educating children - if you are not prepared to do that then perhaps a career change is for you?

Indeed, teachers (and their unions) seem to be forgetting that mpst parents work, so who looks after the kids during the day?

As tragic as every death is, it has been less than 1% of the population, we are better equipped now with social distancing and other measures, kids have precious little to look forward to in later life without a decent education, denying them that for some political upstaging is immoral.

Doctors, Nurses, Porters, Paramedics, Police, Fire, Armed Forces, Coastguard, RNLI and countless others (Supermarket Workers, Bank Staff) risk themselves in their roles, why are teachers a special case?

We need to get used to the fact that Covid is here to stay, and adapt.

Re: getting schools open : Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:46 am  

The opening of schools in the US has not gone too well but why should that be the same for us because we have the in depth planning of the Johnson government.

Re: getting schools open : Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:56 am  

silver2 wrote:

So, where's the evidence that the unions are demanding a 100% safe environment?
- and whilst were at it, wheres the evidence that this government knows what they are doing wrt the virus?

Let's start with the EIS a quote from Larry Flannagan

"Even with full implementation of the guidelines and its mitigations, many teachers and parents will be understandably nervous about a return to the classroom"

What does that say - it says even full implementation - its not enough - go figure?

Patrick Roach - NASUWT
"He also says teachers will not return to their jobs unless the Government affords them the same employment rights as other key workers "

Would you like some more direct quotes?

Re: getting schools open : Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:58 am  

Scarlet Pimpernell wrote:

The opening of schools in the US has not gone too well but why should that be the same for us because we have the in depth planning of the Johnson government.

Most of Europe have kids back in school - France has had them back for months - they were no better prepared than us.

Re: getting schools open : Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:18 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Most of Europe have kids back in school - France has had them back for months - they were no better prepared than us.

Yes they do but they don’t have Johnson in charge whose track record is more Trump with his lack of planning.

[Durham Giant]

Re: getting schools open : Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:51 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Suggestions are that spread of Covid in schools around the world is minimal - suggest teachers and their unions just get back to doing the job they are paid for. Stop their money if they don't want to return - let's see how many stick it out?

However research trumps your suggestions.

The times states that the research shows secondary schools pass it on like adults

Secondary school pupils are likely to transmit coronavirus as easily as adults, according to official research used by ministers to argue that it is safe for all children to return to class next month.
Scientists at Public Health England (PHE) believe that tougher rules are likely to be needed for older children, despite finding that primary pupils do not seem to pass the virus to each other.
Gavin Williamson, the education secretary, said yesterday that a study being conducted by PHE of thousands of pupils who returned to schools in June showed that there was little risk in government plans for all children to be back in the classroom for the new academic year next month.
However, The Times understands that researchers working on the study are unhappy with the way ministers have used the findings, which have not been fully analysed. The preliminary results do suggest that primary schools pose little danger, with only six positive tests out of 9,000 tested so far. These cases were not linked to each other and contact tracing suggested that the children had caught the virus from their parents or other carers outside school.
This morning Edward Argar, the health minister, admitted the PHE research among secondary pupils was “still work in progress”.
He told Sky News: “I think we should be cautious about reading too much into that work in progress, it’s important work but it isn’t complete yet.”
He insisted, however, that plans to reopen schools would continue as planned: “On the basis of the work that has been completed and those international comparators, we are confident that children and young people are much less at risk from this disease and from passing it on than other adults more broadly in the community.”
It is thought that the study, which divided children into under-tens and over-tens, discovered a difference in the older group, which researchers now want to investigate when secondary schools reopen fully. A source close to the study said it suggested that as children aged “their bodies start to act like small adults” in passing on the virus more effectively, something also seen in other studies.
Children are normally aged ten when they enter Year 6, the final year of primary school. “Secondary children are most likely to get infected, have silent infection, transmit infection and get sicker,” the source said. “There’s a genuine concern that secondary school children are not the same as primary school children. Once community control of Covid-19 is lost then outbreaks are seen in secondary schools.”
Another person with knowledge of the study said that not only were there more cases in Year 6 and teenage children of key workers, but they were in clusters, suggesting that pupils were catching the virus at school. It was likely that a sixth-form college would spread the virus in the same way as a similar gathering of older adults.
The findings increase the chances that more freedoms will have to be sacrificed to ensure that all pupils return to class. “Schools would be the absolute last sector to close in any local lockdown,” Boris Johnson’s spokesman said yesterday.
The PHE study monitored levels of virus and antibodies in nearly 140 schools, mostly primary, across the country. It showed “very, very few positive swabs and these were mainly in staff members”, a source said. “Emerging data show that in [younger] children, Covid-19 is a silent infection, with no or minimal transmission. The only time [primary] school children are at risk is if a child brings it into the school from home. Importantly, it does not seem to work the other way around.”

Re: getting schools open : Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:18 am  

Durham Giant wrote:

However research trumps your suggestions.

The times states that the research shows secondary schools pass it on like adults

Secondary school pupils are likely to transmit coronavirus as easily as adults, according to official research used by ministers to argue that it is safe for all children to return to class next month.
Scientists at Public Health England (PHE) believe that tougher rules are likely to be needed for older children, despite finding that primary pupils do not seem to pass the virus to each other.
Gavin Williamson, the education secretary, said yesterday that a study being conducted by PHE of thousands of pupils who returned to schools in June showed that there was little risk in government plans for all children to be back in the classroom for the new academic year next month.
However, The Times understands that researchers working on the study are unhappy with the way ministers have used the findings, which have not been fully analysed. The preliminary results do suggest that primary schools pose little danger, with only six positive tests out of 9,000 tested so far. These cases were not linked to each other and contact tracing suggested that the children had caught the virus from their parents or other carers outside school.
This morning Edward Argar, the health minister, admitted the PHE research among secondary pupils was “still work in progress”.
He told Sky News: “I think we should be cautious about reading too much into that work in progress, it’s important work but it isn’t complete yet.”
He insisted, however, that plans to reopen schools would continue as planned: “On the basis of the work that has been completed and those international comparators, we are confident that children and young people are much less at risk from this disease and from passing it on than other adults more broadly in the community.”
It is thought that the study, which divided children into under-tens and over-tens, discovered a difference in the older group, which researchers now want to investigate when secondary schools reopen fully. A source close to the study said it suggested that as children aged “their bodies start to act like small adults” in passing on the virus more effectively, something also seen in other studies.
Children are normally aged ten when they enter Year 6, the final year of primary school. “Secondary children are most likely to get infected, have silent infection, transmit infection and get sicker,” the source said. “There’s a genuine concern that secondary school children are not the same as primary school children. Once community control of Covid-19 is lost then outbreaks are seen in secondary schools.”
Another person with knowledge of the study said that not only were there more cases in Year 6 and teenage children of key workers, but they were in clusters, suggesting that pupils were catching the virus at school. It was likely that a sixth-form college would spread the virus in the same way as a similar gathering of older adults.
The findings increase the chances that more freedoms will have to be sacrificed to ensure that all pupils return to class. “Schools would be the absolute last sector to close in any local lockdown,” Boris Johnson’s spokesman said yesterday.
The PHE study monitored levels of virus and antibodies in nearly 140 schools, mostly primary, across the country. It showed “very, very few positive swabs and these were mainly in staff members”, a source said. “Emerging data show that in [younger] children, Covid-19 is a silent infection, with no or minimal transmission. The only time [primary] school children are at risk is if a child brings it into the school from home. Importantly, it does not seem to work the other way around.”

There are no studies as yet that positively identify U16 present a greater risk to teachers? This covers 90+% of school children - let's start with them shall we?

Re: getting schools open : Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:33 am  

Yes there is as leaked above but the government appear to want to cherry pick those parts that fit their strategy prior to its official publication because they never quote on leaks. It is possible for anyone to say anything is good to do this but always remember it is Johnson in charge and his planning can be somewhat nonexistent.
We are still waiting for the care bill he said he had ready when first elected leader.