Re: Is it a coincidence ? : Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:43 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I'm not sure that Labour should be trying to fight the next election an a Brexit agenda.
Regardless if it has gone badly, they become an easy target for the opposition, in that "it's what the people voted for".

On the subject of labour shortages, the simple question is, would our labour issues be better or worse had we not left the EU.

It probably wouldn't be as bad, certainly in certain industries, but it would still be happening. It's a global problem.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Is it a coincidence ? : Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:41 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I'm not sure that Labour should be trying to fight the next election an a Brexit agenda.
Regardless if it has gone badly, they become an easy target for the opposition, in that "it's what the people voted for".

On the subject of labour shortages, the simple question is, would our labour issues be better or worse had we not left the EU.

Labour should definitely be putting forward a vision and agenda for a post-Brexit reality. It has been cack, but there’s no way of going back and uncacking it.

It’d be best for the country if the Tories did too, and very interesting. Labour has a cleaner slate, whereas the Tories have four or five main competing visions. They’re not all mutually exclusive but there’s definitely tension between some of them and at some point one or two will have to be given more prominence, which’ll leave some parts of the Brexit alliance feeling betrayed. The first question though is whether Johnson and Frost can keep creating nonsense arguments with the EU to rile up enough people so that they don’t need to bother with anything more than empty slogans.

Re: Is it a coincidence ? : Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:55 am  

The first question though is whether Johnson and Frost can keep creating nonsense arguments with the EU to rile up enough people so that they don’t need to bother with anything more than empty slogans.[/quote]

To quote Chissitt what rag did you read that in, because it is not obvious to him what the plan is.

Re: Is it a coincidence ? : Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:59 pm  

Things are only obvious to those who like you think things are obvious, to the rest of us without the insight you possess not so.

Re: Is it a coincidence ? : Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:53 pm  

Not just me but to Mild Rover and anybody who actually takes notice of what’s going on in the U.K. regarding the EU.

Re: Is it a coincidence ? : Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:12 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

The first question though is whether Johnson and Frost can keep creating nonsense arguments with the EU to rile up enough people so that they don’t need to bother with anything more than empty slogans.

This is definitely their strategy. The EU offer just received really should undercut them because it goes so much further than anyone could realistically have expected them to. From a negotiating point of view that's potentially difficult for the EU because they really don't have much more to give before it becomes impossible (for starters beginning to **** off other parties who have existing EU trade deals which this is much more generous than).

The Johnson government however needs to continue to bogeyman the EU for political purposes so there is a growing expectation that these negotiations will fail and the UK will trigger Article 16. Regardless of the vast damage that could do to our economy it will escalate and prolong the Brexit war, purely for Johnson's political interests. There's also the obvious argument that allowing NI to continue to remain in the single market will expose the folly of Brexit as they don't experience the shortages or relative economic decline that the UK mainland suffers.

Re: Is it a coincidence ? : Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:29 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

This is definitely their strategy. The EU offer just received really should undercut them because it goes so much further than anyone could realistically have expected them to. From a negotiating point of view that's potentially difficult for the EU because they really don't have much more to give before it becomes impossible (for starters beginning to **** off other parties who have existing EU trade deals which this is much more generous than).

The Johnson government however needs to continue to bogeyman the EU for political purposes so there is a growing expectation that these negotiations will fail and the UK will trigger Article 16. Regardless of the vast damage that could do to our economy it will escalate and prolong the Brexit war, purely for Johnson's political interests. There's also the obvious argument that allowing NI to continue to remain in the single market will expose the folly of Brexit as they don't experience the shortages or relative economic decline that the UK mainland suffers.

A very well considered post - the problem the Tories have is that haven't invested as they should and at the risk of moving even further left they can hardly bite the hand that feeds. There also appears to a rift in the party between the free marketers e.g. Sunak and the interventionalists e.g. Boris.

The EU have given a lot the only thing left is the jurisdiction of the EC?

Re: Is it a coincidence ? : Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:38 am  

To the businesses affected by the restrictions what the EU have offered will be more than acceptable especially when NI voted to stay in the EU. I doubt many even care about the ECJ and that is the corner Boris and Frost have painted themselves into. They have already stated that the new EU offer is not acceptable so they now face being shown to be the ones who caused the protocol to collapse not the EU. This will also enable the EU to impose whatever sanctions on us because it was not them who were being unreasonable.
I look forward to seeing how Boris & Co. get onto of this mess of their own making because they believed they could outflank the EU. The Daily Mail was even lauding the offer from the EU as a success for the U.K. and Frost negotiation skills, I wonder what they think now.

Re: Is it a coincidence ? : Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:22 am  

Scarlet Pimpernell wrote:

To the businesses affected by the restrictions what the EU have offered will be more than acceptable especially when NI voted to stay in the EU. I doubt many even care about the ECJ and that is the corner Boris and Frost have painted themselves into. They have already stated that the new EU offer is not acceptable so they now face being shown to be the ones who caused the protocol to collapse not the EU. This will also enable the EU to impose whatever sanctions on us because it was not them who were being unreasonable.
I look forward to seeing how Boris & Co. get onto of this mess of their own making because they believed they could outflank the EU. The Daily Mail was even lauding the offer from the EU as a success for the U.K. and Frost negotiation skills, I wonder what they think now.

Before coming up with slogans and red busses (or both), Bojo & Co should really have worked out just how any type of Brexit could work but, they went for "let's get something signed and we can worry about the detail later" and surprise, surprise, we're in a bit of a mess (understatement).
I suppose the Brexit chickens would eventually come home to roost.

At least we're all much better off than we were

Re: Is it a coincidence ? : Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:46 am  

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

The EU have given a lot the only thing left is the jurisdiction of the EC?

Do you mean the ECJ? If so that's an impossibility. The court is the ultimate legal regulator/arbitor of disputes in the Single Market. If Northern Ireland is to remain in the Single Market it has to follow those rules.

The court protects the integrity of the market and the UK has historically done quite well out of its decisions. Johnson and Frost know what they are requesting is an impossibility and are trying to create yet another EU bogeyman. People in NI certainly don't care so if they were interested in outcomes rather than politics they wouldn't be playing this game.

If it's all about face saving for the UK government I wonder if some sort of solution could be to install Northern Ireland into EFTA which has its own court. Of course that simply follows ECJ rulings and case law so it would be utterly the same but it would probably give the UK government a fig leaf. I don't know if there are other implications, political, legal or economic, by NI following this course though, or if it's compatible with the special NI customs status. Or if the EFTA members would welcome NI with all its complications and baggage. But it might be an option. As ever I'm simply not sure the UK are negotiating in good faith as they appear to want conflict rather than solutions.