Re: No More Arguments: Austerity is Working! : Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:16 pm  

Lord Elpers wrote:

No one is disputing the world financial crash and the effects it had on all economies. What some Labour supporters choose to overlook is the poor state Britain had been left in by the Blair/Brown Government's disasterous economic policies.

Despite enjoying 10 years of a worldwide economic boom Buster ("no more boom and bust") Brown and Ed Balls-up presided over an unprecedented period of borrow and spend which grew the state (and their potential re-election supporters) out of proportion. In those good times they failed to do the maintenance work the country so badly needed. They also failed to regulate our own financial services industry adequately. So when the world economic bubble burst Britain was in much poorer shape than most of the other leading economies with a huge deficit and no policies in place to halt the downward plunge.

The coalition inherited a country in a serious fiscal crisis with its public services "broken" and mired in "deep-seated problems of unsustainable spending, uncompetitive taxes and unreformed public services" as Osborne said.

These, and the other factors I have previously mentioned are the reasons why things have taken so long to see the real signs of recovery. This is the Buster Brown/ Ed Balls-up legacy that we all shouldn't forget.

Yes, spot on.

To argue that the eurozone crisis was nothing to do with the economy of the UK between 2010 and now is pretty ridiculous.

The scary thing is however that Labour supporters still believe the correct course of action was / is to spend more. Spend, spend, spend. It's really unbelievable and not hard to see why the Tories will be more trusted on the economy for a long time.

Re: No More Arguments: Austerity is Working! : Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:28 pm  

Ajw71 wrote:

Yes, spot on.

To argue that the eurozone crisis was nothing to do with the economy of the UK between 2010 and now is pretty ridiculous.

The scary thing is however that Labour supporters still believe the correct course of action was / is to spend more. Spend, spend, spend. It's really unbelievable and not hard to see why the Tories will be more trusted on the economy for a long time.

Apart from the fact that Labour had no such plans at all if they had won the 2010 election what exactly do you think Osborne is doing now ?

Re: No More Arguments: Austerity is Working! : Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:41 pm  

Ajw71 wrote:

I already have. 1.9% growth since your statement...

Do you still stand by this?

Re: No More Arguments: Austerity is Working! : Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:59 pm  

Ajw71 wrote:

1.6 million jobs created since the coalition came into office. Did someone mention job creation....

With a FTE of what exactly?

Any comment to make on yesterday's unemployment figures? 2.62 millions - hijghest for 17 years.

Remind me, who was in power 17 years ago?

Re: No More Arguments: Austerity is Working! : Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:34 am  

cod'ead wrote:

Any comment to make on yesterday's unemployment figures? 2.62 millions - hijghest for 17 years.

So, it's at it's highest level for 17 years, yet also at it's lowest level for 4 years?

Re: No More Arguments: Austerity is Working! : Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:12 am  

BobbyD wrote:

So, it's at it's highest level for 17 years, yet also at it's lowest level for 4 years?

Its a headline figure that everyone hangs their coat on, and its good that its falling because it needs to fall quite a long way yet, but there is a lot more to it than the headline figure and I don't believe that many MP's have the nounce or the political will to look beyond it.

I could fix unemployment in a day if I were PM - I could pass a law that proclaimed that no-one in the country was allowed to work more than 30 hours a week in any circumstances - there aren't enough unemployed people in the country to fill the vacancies that that law would create, we'd be begging Bulgarians and Romanians to come here to fill those vacancies.

Now go away and privately look at your last months salary and work out how you'd manage on 75% of it on a permanent basis and while you're at it work out how you'd manage on 50% because 20 hour contracts are very common.

THATS the hidden issue behind employment.

Re: No More Arguments: Austerity is Working! : Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:48 am  

BobbyD wrote:

So, it's at it's highest level for 17 years, yet also at it's lowest level for 4 years?

You may be confusing employment and unemployment statistics

Re: No More Arguments: Austerity is Working! : Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:59 am  

cod'ead wrote:

You may be confusing employment and unemployment statistics

I'm not the only one it seems.

The Guardian, BBC , ONS among others all say 2.39m, So where is this other 230,000?

[DaveO]

Re: No More Arguments: Austerity is Working! : Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:21 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Firstly I am a Tory voter and I will always vote that way - damage limitation in my opinion. The idea that we are in recovery is just fantasy IMO. I do think there is the beginnings of a better feeling but it is the beginnings IMO and it will take several months.

I think your appraisal of a manufacturing supply chain is way off the mark for the majority of businesses. Supply chain planning is one of the most difficult jobs in any organisation and a challenge that even the best - Apple - have not mastered. Even simple supply chains are complex.

The idea that there is no case for labour flexibility - zero hour contracts are a no-no for me - because planning is so easy is so far from reality that it is obvious you know very little about supply chain and manufacturing.

I was not arguing there was no room for labour flexibility. It is how that us achieved that counts. Unfortunately it is far too easy for legislation supposedly designed to introduce flexibility in the labour market to be exploitative, result in employee insecurity and it can also drive wages down.

My argument is that while planning at companies like Vauxhall isn't trivial they and similar companies survived without the need for labour laws that even if they didn't indulge in it themselves led to exploitation elsewhere.

If all employers were good it would not matter but they are not and I'd say even the good ones would occasionally abuse employment laws designed for flexibility if it suited.

The newly privatised Royal Mail has just agreed a deal with the union that they will not use zero hours contacts at all. They will still be employing extra staff over Christmas to deal with the seasonal variation so if they can do that I don't see why similar companies and retailers in particular can't work out how to do the same.

Contrast that with the chairman of Dominoes Pizza and his desire to import cheap labour.

Overall I don't think in all my adult life I have lived through a period where capital accumulation has been so slewed towards a very narrow band of society at the expense of the rest or it.

I don't think it is healthy at all for the top 1% to be racing ahead when the rest suffer a decline in living standards as wage increases (such as they are) fall so far behind the cost of living and one of the reasons for this is underemployment and things like zero hours contracts keeping wages low.

This isn't the politics of envy either. I am up there at the top end of the wage spectrum and so should be Tory voting fodder myself but I have never yet seen a Tory administration that doesn't harm the interests of the less well off. This one is the worst I have ever seen for that.

What surprises me is many on here who espouse a right wing view are also worse off under this government but just can't see it.

Re: No More Arguments: Austerity is Working! : Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:13 am  

Him wrote:

GDP per capita has fallen since 2010 and shows no sign of increasing.

Do you still stand by this?