Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:36 pm  

Each of the countries within the EU are able to negotiate their own deals and regulations for vaccines , much like we could have blue passports at any time.

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:12 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

This stuff about worries about unelected bureaucrats, a centralised state and powerful actors manipulating the system.

It's amazing, even factoring in the lies that make people think this stuff is true about the EU, and their seemingly permanent myopia that they never take a look around over here and think, "wait a minute...."

The difference is if we don't like it we can change it every 5 years - can't do that with the EU now can we?

You seem to be in a minority of one when it comes to the attitude of the EU - you view is its a welcoming open arrangement that is available to everyone - no protectionism, no real rules of engagement nice free and easy. Perhaps you need to heed you own advise and "wait a minute"

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:26 am  

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

The difference is if we don't like it we can change it every 5 years - can't do that with the EU now can we?

You seem to be in a minority of one when it comes to the attitude of the EU - you view is its a welcoming open arrangement that is available to everyone - no protectionism, no real rules of engagement nice free and easy. Perhaps you need to heed you own advise and "wait a minute"

The "protectionism" is ok if you are on the inside and although it's (very) early days, it was a damn sight easier trading (in either direction) as part of the club.
At the moment it's a right mess.
The government will say it's just teething troubles but, we SHOULD have had most of last year to get used to the new arrangements.
As it was, there was no time to properly prepare,. because the deal was only "agreed" at the 11th hour, leaving some businesses and of course most of Ireland (both sides) with serious amounts of unnecessary pain, much of which is still ongoing.

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:36 am  

Mild Rover wrote:

It is possible, and the EU is far from perfect. But we assess both the risk and the hazard differently. I think it is a smaller leap of faith to see this not happening. There are other hazards that concern me more (broadly, a continent-wide rise in far right populism) and that might mean that we actually do end up being better off out. However, for now the risk, while bigger than I’d like, remains small and so I didn’t see an urgent need to depart. But we have, so there you go!

Okay, I may genuinely have missed something here. There seems to be some conception that there is a single EU vaccination program, that is to the detriment of efforts in individual member states. That isn’t the case, as I understand it. While national decision makers take advice from the EMA, after regulatory approval for which the EMA is entirely responsible, they make their decisions independently. For example the (imo strange) decisions to suspend use of the AZ vaccine were taken independently in some member states and in not others.

Gosh yes - it’d be terrible to live in a state where the wealthy and powerful exert their influence in pursuit of their best interests, exploiting the poor and disempowered as necessary. Fortunately, we live in the UK - home of fairness, where everybody’s voice weighs equally.


Where do you see the greatest opportunities to sharpen? Why do you think they have been neglected to this point?

To answer your points:
This country has been debating staying in the EU since Major was in charge - it wasn't a snap decision it was just the government were not prepared to give the population the opportunity to vote on it - Blair promised but never did. If you are going to leave when would you suggest a good time was?

Perhaps to don't see a connection between high levels of vaccination and controllable levels of infection/death. Perhaps its a myth that virtually everywhere in Europe cases are rising except the UK. France-Paris back in lockdown, Croatia 50% increase, Germany doubled in March etc. UK 70% down in March. If the EU only allows dictates the supply of the vaccine and you get idiots like Macron playing politics then it will not end well. There was never any evidence that AZ jab was anymore harmful than a normal vaccine but it was produced by a UK firm so we end up a bonkers situation whereby the EU doesn't want to use the drug but also doesn't want the UK - who have no issues - to use it - what does that tell you about the EU?

Of course but we could have voted in John and Jeremy to shake things up - we can't really do that in the EU can we? If the Germans say jump everybody else simply goes how high - half the members are subsidised they are very unlikely to bite the hand that feed?

Where could we sharpen up - where do you start: Manufacturing, main stream banking, public sector, NHS, environmental etc. Where are we good - innovation, especially military, advertising, commercial banking etc.

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:56 pm  

Ah we're back to "what about Jeremy Corbyn" again are we.

When will Corbyn ever take responsibility for his disastrous handling of the economy and public services these past ten years, that's what we all demand to know.

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:01 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

Ah we're back to "what about Jeremy Corbyn" again are we.

When will Corbyn ever take responsibility for his disastrous handling of the economy and public services these past ten years, that's what we all demand to know.

Where has anybody suggested the state of the economy has anything to do with Corbyn? Just another one of your miss readings/understanding?

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:09 pm  

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

The difference is if we don't like it we can change it every 5 years - can't do that with the EU now can we?

You seem to be in a minority of one when it comes to the attitude of the EU - you view is its a welcoming open arrangement that is available to everyone - no protectionism, no real rules of engagement nice free and easy. Perhaps you need to heed you own advise and "wait a minute"

Well yes the EU has elected representatives and delegates with the key players all needing approval from our own elected government and the parliament being directly elected and major decisions requiring vote by the nation states. I do wonder what fantasy world you're talking about half the time.

Again, as if you're really upset about "protectionism" and all you've ever wanted in life is a bit of old liberal laissez-faire free trade. Really? Or is it just something to latch on to to beat the EU?

The world has divided into a number of regional trading blocs, regional because you trade most with those nearest at hand. Those blocs reduce or eliminate trade friction within. They don't massively raise friction externally.

You can believe that the UK is best served living outside this global reality. And I'm sure we could make a go of it as a low tax, low regulation, low pay economy as that's the best way to operate if you decide being inside your bloc isn't for you. (And especially if at the same time you passionately refuse to believe in making the investments which would differentiate us as a high knowledge, high skill, high wage economy).

The low tax and regulation route would work out just fine for some, maybe for you; not so much for the many however.

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:11 pm  

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

Where has anybody suggested the state of the economy has anything to do with Corbyn? Just another one of your miss readings/understanding?

I dunno, you're the one who keeps mentioning them. Obsessed or deflecting attention, whichever. The reality is they've never been in power so what they would or would not have done is utterly irrelevant.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:56 pm  

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

To answer your points:
This country has been debating staying in the EU since Major was in charge - it wasn't a snap decision it was just the government were not prepared to give the population the opportunity to vote on it - Blair promised but never did. If you are going to leave when would you suggest a good time was?

I would have suggested when we had a plan that could survive the scrutiny of even its own proponents and creators for more than a few weeks. And when adequate preparations were in place. I do have some sympathy people who really wanted to leave the EU because of legitimate anxieties about ever closer political ties to Europe, because all of the prominent figures offering it were/are cartoon-ish gormers.

As somebody with legitimate anxieties about late stage capitalism, inequality and ecological collapse, I feel their pain, having had to pin my hopes on Corbyn. I mean, he meant well from my political POV, but you have to give yourself a chance.

The problem, imo, was that with a clear and specific plan Leave probably doesn’t win the referendum. But without one, and with Johnson, Gove, JRM et al in charge of cobbling something together it was always going to be a mess.

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

Perhaps to don't see a connection between high levels of vaccination and controllable levels of infection/death. Perhaps its a myth that virtually everywhere in Europe cases are rising except the UK. France-Paris back in lockdown, Croatia 50% increase, Germany doubled in March etc. UK 70% down in March. If the EU only allows dictates the supply of the vaccine and you get idiots like Macron playing politics then it will not end well. There was never any evidence that AZ jab was anymore harmful than a normal vaccine but it was produced by a UK firm so we end up a bonkers situation whereby the EU doesn't want to use the drug but also doesn't want the UK - who have no issues - to use it - what does that tell you about the EU?

That tells me almost nothing about the EU as a whole. There’s some information about its constituent parts that are in some cases making a bit of a mess of their vaccination programs. AZ is a British-Swedish multinational, with a Swedish chairman and a French-Australian CEO. I did quite a bit of work with them 2015 to 2017 and it did feel a bit more British than Roche and Novartis feel Swiss, for example. But the idea that the EU doesn’t want use their vaccine because it is too British is laughable paranoia. They’re more frustrated that they can’t get enough of it.

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

Of course but we could have voted in John and Jeremy to shake things up - we can't really do that in the EU can we? If the Germans say jump everybody else simply goes how high - half the members are subsidised they are very unlikely to bite the hand that feed?

I’m not sure that leaving the EU really solves that broad problem. The freedom given by independence is often notional. In theory we’re a sovereign equal with the US but there is a massive power imbalance. It is going to be similar with the EU in some respects. With more resentment being stoked, admittedly.

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:

Where could we sharpen up - where do you start: Manufacturing, main stream banking, public sector, NHS, environmental etc. Where are we good - innovation, especially military, advertising, commercial banking etc.

Some of that I agree with. The simplicity of the NHS concept offers impressive value for the relatively small price we pay compared with most other wealthy countries, imo. Is commercial banking the part of banking associated with synthetic collaterized debt obligations, bankruptcies and massive public bailouts, creating a sense of injustice that led to stuff like Brexit and the Trump Presidency? Tbf, it is about 14 years since the entire system teetered on the brink of collapse, which is nice.

What new opportunities do you see for improving the areas you highlight, resulting from Brexit?
Well done on getting this far, if you have, btw. Have an RLFANS house point.

Re: Vaccine Guinea Pig : Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:06 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

. AZ is a British-Swedish multinational, with a Swedish chairman and a French-Australian CEO. I did quite a bit of work with them 2015 to 2017 and it did feel a bit more British than Roche and Novartis feel Swiss, for example. But the idea that the EU doesn’t want use their vaccine because it is too British is laughable paranoia. They’re more frustrated that they can’t get enough of it.

100% this.
The weird patriotism BS being spread about the AZ, sorry err "Oxford" vaccine is mind-boggling. If people can't see they're being fed a line with that one I truly despair at what they'll believe.