Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:38 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I have mentioned numerous times on here how it that goods from SE Asia the US, China can move seamlessly across the EU border but all of sudden this will be an issue with these same goods crossing the same the only difference is we are no longer in the EU - surely the technology that allows Apple to bring its computers from SE Asia without delay at the ports can applied once we have left the EU?

You're nearly right.
However, there are full border controls for people from outside the EU moving into the EU and it's the same for the movement of goods.
You could argue that it's just a case of getting the relevant paperwork but, there are physical checks for imported goods for the countries that you mention and shipments are usually scanned and occasionally "fully checked" to ensure that the paperwork is in order and again, for people, it's a case of having the right documentation and having border controls where this can be checked and this is THE main issue, especially on the Irish Border.
A fragile peace has been kept in Ireland (with the occasional serious incident) since the Good Friday agreement and "no deal" will see a return to some of the sectarian stuff from the '80's.
Of course this barely got a mention during the referendum but, this was always THE biggest issue and there is still no solution, only the hope that there could be one over the coming few years, which is why the EU insisted on the Backstop, something that Boris is still prepared to pretend doesn't matter.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:40 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

You're nearly right.
However, there are full border controls for people from outside the EU moving into the EU and it's the same for the movement of goods.
You could argue that it's just a case of getting the relevant paperwork but, there are physical checks for imported goods for the countries that you mention and shipments are usually scanned and occasionally "fully checked" to ensure that the paperwork is in order and again, for people, it's a case of having the right documentation and having border controls where this can be checked and this is THE main issue, especially on the Irish Border.
A fragile peace has been kept in Ireland (with the occasional serious incident) since the Good Friday agreement and "no deal" will see a return to some of the sectarian stuff from the '80's.
Of course this barely got a mention during the referendum but, this was always THE biggest issue and there is still no solution, only the hope that there could be one over the coming few years, which is why the EU insisted on the Backstop, something that Boris is still prepared to pretend doesn't matter.

There are border controls for EU citizens moving within the EU - have been to an airport recently it isn't simply free movement. There are still checks of goods moving within the EU - when they rarely have a drug seizure. The idea that every container coming into the EU is fully scanned is simple not true - they would have to open every container empty it etc. It doesn't happen. Goods with the correct paperwork move seamlessly into the EU from non EU countries so why is moving the same product across the Irish border in exactly the same way now such an issue?

The fact the Irish want to use violence as a smoke screen for organised crime is not an issue that should hold back such a huge decision - it is the only way the EU perceive they can delay us leaving. If the Irish want to blow each other up let them do it. We shouldn't let 3-4 million people dictate for 60+ million - our have we all turned into Queen Nicola, we let gangs in London kill each other every week with much of an attempt to stop it.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:15 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

There are border controls for EU citizens moving within the EU - have been to an airport recently it isn't simply free movement. There are still checks of goods moving within the EU - when they rarely have a drug seizure. The idea that every container coming into the EU is fully scanned is simple not true - they would have to open every container empty it etc. It doesn't happen. Goods with the correct paperwork move seamlessly into the EU from non EU countries so why is moving the same product across the Irish border in exactly the same way now such an issue?

The fact the Irish want to use violence as a smoke screen for organised crime is not an issue that should hold back such a huge decision - it is the only way the EU perceive they can delay us leaving. If the Irish want to blow each other up let them do it. We shouldn't let 3-4 million people dictate for 60+ million - our have we all turned into Queen Nicola, we let gangs in London kill each other every week with much of an attempt to stop it.

Sorry but, you're wrong again.
You previously mentioned freight form China, USA etc and yes, EVERY shipping container is scanned. I can send you copy invoices showing the charge for this if you like, and some are opened (although this is pretty rare).
Within Europe, which is a single trading block, things are different. Of course there are passport controls between certain nations and especially at airports.
However, you seem to be suggesting that NONE of this will happen between the two "halves" of Ireland and that everything should be allowed to move accross the border, in both directions, based on "trust"
Remembering that YOU voted to "take back control" of our borders, one of which is on the island of Ireland. Therefore, there would have to be FULL border control, both for people and goods, which will massively impact on the everyday lives of all of those living there - who regularly move from north to south and south to north.
Ireland will still be full members of the EU, with free movement form anywhere in Europe - apart from the UK, which seems slightly strange but, it's part of "the package".
You may well b right about organised crime and an open border certainly makes the movement of illegal goods and people far simpler.
Therefore, how would you prevent this from happening, a fecking honesty box at each border crossing

The Tories and Farage dont have the answer yet, other than saying that they "will have one soon" but, the truth is they havent got a clue and in a no deal scenario, the best they have got is that "we wont put any border controls in place", which isnt any kind of "control", is it.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:16 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I have mentioned numerous times on here how it that goods from SE Asia the US, China can move seamlessly across the EU border but all of sudden this will be an issue with these same goods crossing the same the only difference is we are no longer in the EU - surely the technology that allows Apple to bring its computers from SE Asia without delay at the ports can applied once we have left the EU?

I thought we'd move beyond this simplistic nonsense which conflates either through ignorance wilful misrepresentation the supply chains from the EU and those from further afield. Do you have any idea how the ro-ro Port of Dover works compared to the container Port of Felixstowe? Dover is based on immediate throughput for accompanied wheeled freight from Calais and Dunkerque and has very little standage area for inspection and clearance.

The big container ports require clearance by customs, with some of the paper shuffling being managed by teams who deal with it during the sea passage which takes several weeks. Then you need to sort out the duty payments, unless you have an approved deferment account.

At the very best it will take several years to build the required customs facilities for this to even come close to working, never mind training enough staff to deal with such a huge increase in workload. The idea of leaving without any of this in place is insanity to anyone with the slightest clue about supply chains or logistics management.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:26 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

At the very best it will take several years to build the required customs facilities for this to even come close to working, never mind training enough staff to deal with such a huge increase in workload. The idea of leaving without any of this in place is insanity to anyone with the slightest clue about supply chains or logistics management.

I dont agree with the "several years" comment but, it certainly wont be instant.
Therefore, we either turn a blind eye to freight coming in from the EU or, as you rightly say, there will be a huge backlog of traffic.

It's patently clear that neither ourselves or the EU are ready for no deal, which may suggest that there will, even at this late stage, be some form of agreement.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:47 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I dont agree with the "several years" comment but, it certainly wont be instant.
Therefore, we either turn a blind eye to freight coming in from the EU or, as you rightly say, there will be a huge backlog of traffic.

It's patently clear that neither ourselves or the EU are ready for no deal, which may suggest that there will, even at this late stage, be some form of agreement.

It will be years - the port of Dover has no space for any customs checking facilities, it's just not a thing since they were all removed in the early '90s, since when freight has grown exponentially. Given how slowly infrastructure developments move in this country it will be a long time before suitable facilities are in place.

[Bullseye]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:54 am  

Not just Dover either.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:11 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

It will be years - the port of Dover has no space for any customs checking facilities, it's just not a thing since they were all removed in the early '90s, since when freight has grown exponentially. Given how slowly infrastructure developments move in this country it will be a long time before suitable facilities are in place.

Dover isn't a port that we imported goods through as the primary choice was always Felixstowe.
However, on the basis that container freight still comes in through the port of Dover, there must be some facilities for physical customs checks.
I do agree that it would take time to upscale these to deal with a significant increase in checks but, it's not impossible to change things.
Mind you, in a "no deal" scenario, despite Gove's waffling on the Marr show yesterday, time is something that we wont have.

Talking of Gove, how the hell can he say that the settled status system is working well when, with 8 weeks to go till Halloween, there are a further 2+ million Europeans still to "process"

It seems abundantly clear that, despite "leaving do or die" and £billions being thrown at the project, we are bloody miles away from being ready and that just like Mrs May, all we are being "fed" is guff and hot air.

I wonder if Boris will be forced to resign is we're not "out" on 31st October.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:37 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Dover isn't a port that we imported goods through as the primary choice was always Felixstowe.
However, on the basis that container freight still comes in through the port of Dover, there must be some facilities for physical customs checks.
I do agree that it would take time to upscale these to deal with a significant increase in checks but, it's not impossible to change things.
Mind you, in a "no deal" scenario, despite Gove's waffling on the Marr show yesterday, time is something that we wont have.

Container freight doesn't come through Dover. Container traffic tends to be longer-distance international freight although you do get some short-sea stuff.
Dover is all about fast-moving wheeled freight, accompanied by drivers, coming from the EU. That's how our food gets into the country.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:27 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote: Container freight doesn't come through Dover. Container traffic tends to be longer-distance international freight although you do get some short-sea stuff. Dover is all about fast-moving wheeled freight, accompanied by drivers, coming from the EU. That's how our food gets into the country. Sorry but, you are wrong. There are definitely facilities at Dover for loading/unloading container freight. I'm not saying that it's anything remotely like Felixstowe and although we haven't imported container freight there, usually preferring Felixstowe, there is a facility there.https://www.dover-marina.com/cargo/ You are right to point out that it (Dover) is the primary port for transportation from France for both people and road freight and the hold up's and delays in the event of "no deal" would certainly be "interesting".

The Ghost of '99 wrote: Container freight doesn't come through Dover. Container traffic tends to be longer-distance international freight although you do get some short-sea stuff. Dover is all about fast-moving wheeled freight, accompanied by drivers, coming from the EU. That's how our food gets into the country. Sorry but, you are wrong. There are definitely facilities at Dover for loading/unloading container freight. I'm not saying that it's anything remotely like Felixstowe and although we haven't imported container freight there, usually preferring Felixstowe, there is a facility there.https://www.dover-marina.com/cargo/ You are right to point out that it (Dover) is the primary port for transportation from France for both people and road freight and the hold up's and delays in the event of "no deal" would certainly be "interesting".