Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:56 am  

Sheldon wrote:

When I read threats like that I Hope May just says “love it, we’re remaining.”

The status quo, ffs.

You’ve been lied to.

Have I? How?

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:11 am  

Cronus wrote:

Have I? How?

We were all lied to, which has to include you.
You may not have been taken it, by said lies, but, you were lied to

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:21 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

We were all lied to, which has to include you.
You may not have been taken it, by said lies, but, you were lied to

We were presented with some possibilities on both sides of the argument it was up to you what you believed i.e. it would be either economic catastrophy and immediate tax rises from the remain or money into the NHS from the leave.

Neither side came out of the debate smelling of roses

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:02 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

We were all lied to, which has to include you.
You may not have been taken it, by said lies, but, you were lied to

What Sal Paradise said.

Yes, there were lies and exaggerations from both sides in the referendum, from "it'll be the easiest negotiation ever" to "massive economic collapse/tax rises if we vote leave". But this is fairly normal stuff for any campaign. Does anyone take campaign promises (and indeed manifestos) at face value? Is anyone really so naive?

And does anyone really think a '£350M to the NHS' slogan won the referendum? Did it hell. These things only matter if they swing votes, which I seriously doubt they did to any significant degree. Of course there's a degree of influence, but the same applies for both sides. I dare say Project Fear was more influential; the never-ending promises of economic armageddon if we voted leave, stoking fear of the unknown.

While political campaigns have a degree of influence, people vote on personal experience. 17M were unhappy enough with what's been happening around them to vote for something to either try and put it to an end, or to send a clear fck you to the powers that be. If you live in an area that hasn't really been affected by rapid mass immigration, for example, you can't possibly appreciate the impact in other areas.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:13 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Personally I think the EU will come to the party and they will make sufficient concessions to the back stop to get the deal through.

The thing is, if they’re negotiating even indirectly, with the ERG, they must know that nothing will ever be good enough - so why give up anything? It’ll never be enough, there’ll always be calls for more. Those Tory goons want to be betrayed, because then they can keep on complaining and blaming everybody else.

Why May thinks clarifications around the technicalities of the backstop will swing any meaningful number behind her deal is beyond me. So I assume she is hoping that people will reflect over Christmas, and feel the pressure as the clock ticks down.

From an EU perspective, it always had to a bit of an icky deal for the UK - pour encourager les autres. But it’s doesn’t seem very punitive, just a bit... ‘yeah, with hindsight’. But what’s done is done.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:23 pm  

Cronus wrote:

What Sal Paradise said.

Yes, there were lies and exaggerations from both sides in the referendum, from "it'll be the easiest negotiation ever" to "massive economic collapse/tax rises if we vote leave". But this is fairly normal stuff for any campaign. Does anyone take campaign promises (and indeed manifestos) at face value? Is anyone really so naive?

And does anyone really think a '£350M to the NHS' slogan won the referendum? Did it hell. These things only matter if they swing votes, which I seriously doubt they did to any significant degree. Of course there's a degree of influence, but the same applies for both sides. I dare say Project Fear was more influential; the never-ending promises of economic armageddon if we voted leave, stoking fear of the unknown.

While political campaigns have a degree of influence, people vote on personal experience. 17M were unhappy enough with what's been happening around them to vote for something to either try and put it to an end, or to send a clear fck you to the powers that be. If you live in an area that hasn't really been affected by rapid mass immigration, for example, you can't possibly appreciate the impact in other areas.

Having Cameron and Osborne as the face of "remain" was a huge blunder.
They had been squeezing the life out of some of the poorer members of society and it became an "easy" decision to vote against them. I agree that there was a massive two finger gesture in their direction.


Having said that, you mention "stoking fear of the unknown" and we're certainly getting plenty of "unknown" and this is before the start of any trade deal.

Ironically, the UK looks like it will be doing exactly as the EU want as our ability to negotiate is utterly impotent and we need someone with "balls" to get stuck in (as far as an intransigent EU will allow).

Mrs May is becoming a total laughing stock both at home and abroad.

She's like a very poor mans Thatcher (trying to say the right things but, totally hapless in obtaining them.

On a side note, you have to commend Junkers knowledge of the English languiage in using the word " nebulous", a word not often used by many people.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:32 pm  

Cronus wrote:

What Sal Paradise said.

Yes, there were lies and exaggerations from both sides in the referendum, from "it'll be the easiest negotiation ever" to "massive economic collapse/tax rises if we vote leave". But this is fairly normal stuff for any campaign. Does anyone take campaign promises (and indeed manifestos) at face value? Is anyone really so naive?

And does anyone really think a '£350M to the NHS' slogan won the referendum? Did it hell. These things only matter if they swing votes, which I seriously doubt they did to any significant degree. Of course there's a degree of influence, but the same applies for both sides. I dare say Project Fear was more influential; the never-ending promises of economic armageddon if we voted leave, stoking fear of the unknown.

While political campaigns have a degree of influence, people vote on personal experience. 17M were unhappy enough with what's been happening around them to vote for something to either try and put it to an end, or to send a clear fck you to the powers that be. If you live in an area that hasn't really been affected by rapid mass immigration, for example, you can't possibly appreciate the impact in other areas.

Politicians lie and are self-serving because it works. Honest and selfless politicians typically don’t last long. Parliamentary natural selection, innit? And ultimately the electorate are the people applying the evolutionary pressures... along with donors, lobbyists, the media... but much of it is us.

The Leave campaign’s huge advantage, and Cameron’s great blunder, was that they were allowed to be simply against something. Attack being better than defence is one of the basic rules of rhetoric. The problem, as we saw on Johnson’s ashen face the morning after, is what to do if you win and you have to defend the new position.

It’s true that people were and are angry, and with no little justification imo. It’s sad and predictable that the only way they had to express that anger was in a way that was very unlikely to lead to any benefit to them. Sometimes it’s just a relief to be heard though, even if it is just a desperate, futile howl of rage - as a Hull KR fan, there were times when it is very easy to sympathise with that around the time of the Brexit campaign and vote!

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:02 pm  

Meanwhile in the real world we have a trade imbalance with the Eu and a trade surplus with non EU countries. Especially with the USA. The last few months various politicians from our country have helped/colluded with the EU in order to prevent any kind of meaningful brexit. Even now Blair is trying to prevent our departure. Saw dodgy dossier Campbell being interviewed by Andrew Neil. Campbell wants a new vote because 600 thousand people marched in London the other week. Neil reminded him of the time a million people marched in London against the Iraq war. No response whatsoever. If the EU is so fantastic how come large swathes of France are struggling to make ends meet. Youth unemployment in the EU is higher than the UK and has been for a number of years. Just remind me how successful macron was after visiting mutti Merkel with his super ideas for the EU. The Italian banking crisis has yet to unfold, they owe billions to French and German banks. Greece has debts they can never repay. Whilst the east Europe countries receive money from the EU it’s doubtful they will ever be in a position to contribute to the EU. World trade with the EU is dropping year on year. If the Italian people mimic the French protests, as is likely the EU will have major problems. Looking on the bright side when Albania joins the EU we will have much enjoyment when the whole of that country floods into the EU. Won’t trouble Blair, Lineker, mandelson they will be unaffected by it. Heseltine is cocooned on his country estate. Whilst nick Clegg having destroyed the lib dem party and received his gong has piddled off to the to the USA for a million smackers a year. The hypocrisy of these people is staggering and yet they wonder why they lost the vote. Forgot to mention Yvette Cooper reminded of the time she displayed a refugee sign saying welcome to refugees. Still hasn’t taken any refugees in, surprising as she has 2 houses. Probably because she has a poor memory as a majority if her voters want to leave the EU. She is openly working to remain. Funny old world isn’t it ?

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:18 pm  

Backwoodsman wrote:

Funny old world isn’t it ?

Hilarious.

I’m looking forward to blaming everything on Brexit in the future. Everything. Might even start referring to it as an ‘experiment’. The failed Brexit experiment... has a ring to it.

Now we’re on the cusp of it, can anybody make a positive case for it? Because i’ll admit it, compelling and positive is difficult. For the EU, I’d go with something like ‘international institutions are best able to deal with global challenges’, but we’re only something like a Marine Le Pen presidency away from that sounding pretty hollow.

What, realistically, are the expected benefits of Brexit now? In fairness to May’s deal, as I understand it, it gives the UK full control over immigration policy, which seemed to be a key selling point. What do folks think of her deal?

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:34 pm  

Backwoodsman wrote:

Meanwhile in the real world we have a trade imbalance with the Eu and a trade surplus with non EU countries. Especially with the USA. The last few months various politicians from our country have helped/colluded with the EU in order to prevent any kind of meaningful brexit. Even now Blair is trying to prevent our departure. Saw dodgy dossier Campbell being interviewed by Andrew Neil. Campbell wants a new vote because 600 thousand people marched in London the other week. Neil reminded him of the time a million people marched in London against the Iraq war. No response whatsoever. If the EU is so fantastic how come large swathes of France are struggling to make ends meet. Youth unemployment in the EU is higher than the UK and has been for a number of years. Just remind me how successful macron was after visiting mutti Merkel with his super ideas for the EU. The Italian banking crisis has yet to unfold, they owe billions to French and German banks. Greece has debts they can never repay. Whilst the east Europe countries receive money from the EU it’s doubtful they will ever be in a position to contribute to the EU. World trade with the EU is dropping year on year. If the Italian people mimic the French protests, as is likely the EU will have major problems. Looking on the bright side when Albania joins the EU we will have much enjoyment when the whole of that country floods into the EU. Won’t trouble Blair, Lineker, mandelson they will be unaffected by it. Heseltine is cocooned on his country estate. Whilst nick Clegg having destroyed the lib dem party and received his gong has piddled off to the to the USA for a million smackers a year. The hypocrisy of these people is staggering and yet they wonder why they lost the vote. Forgot to mention Yvette Cooper reminded of the time she displayed a refugee sign saying welcome to refugees. Still hasn’t taken any refugees in, surprising as she has 2 houses. Probably because she has a poor memory as a majority if her voters want to leave the EU. She is openly working to remain. Funny old world isn’t it ?

Hypocrisy ??

Start with Boris and see just where it takes you

Just as we will never know if life would have been better if we had reamined in the EU (assuming we leave), we will never know if life would have been better had we never joined the "club".
How about the top brass in the Tory Party, advocating "leave", whilst hastily moving their cash away from the UK, just in case it all turns to schmidt and yet they are still telling us that "things will be better when we are out".