Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:47 am  

bren2k wrote:

I agree - she never helps; too prone to waffle, and I think she has her own ambitions.

She needs getting rid of s she is damaging both the image and the message that Labour are trying to get out there
Why on earth does she keep representing Labour on QT and Daily Politics etc I just dont know and her comments were as bad as anything I can remember for their level of contradiction.

I still believe that Labour should be coming out with a clear Leave or Remain strategy.

Their policy of campaigning and then assuming they gain power, gaining a leave deal and then putting it to the people isn't enough.
They HAVE to decide what they stand for.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:22 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

She needs getting rid of s she is damaging both the image and the message that Labour are trying to get out there
Why on earth does she keep representing Labour on QT and Daily Politics etc I just dont know and her comments were as bad as anything I can remember for their level of contradiction.

I still believe that Labour should be coming out with a clear Leave or Remain strategy.

Their policy of campaigning and then assuming they gain power, gaining a leave deal and then putting it to the people isn't enough.
They HAVE to decide what they stand for.

I agree - there are better options; Laura Pidcock would be my choice.

I get the frustration - but I genuinely think that Corbyn is trying to get us out of a Leave vs Remain mindset; he, quite rightly, wants to focus on a wider agenda - NHS, education, wage gap etc etc, and to reunite people who've been pitted against each other since the first referendum. It's the Tories who want to make this a Brexit election, and I happen to think he's right to resist that.

I'm fairly relaxed about his position; take No Deal off the table - extend A50 - hold an election - then let the people decide, without all the fairyland nonsense about how great it will be if we do leave, because 3 years on, that's self-evidently not the case; and equally, without the extreme project fear rhetoric. Just facts. If people still vote to Leave, negotiate the least damaging deal possible, and enact their will. That's likely to mean some form of customs union, which would instantly eliminate the need for the Irish backstop, removing the objections of many MP's.

The lairy, lounging, Bullingdon Boy approach to political debate has had a headlong collision with reality in the past week, and has proven to be an abject failure - other than confirming that Eton should be in special measures. It's time for some grown-up politic.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:33 pm  

bren2k wrote:

other than confirming that Eton should be in special measures.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:59 pm  

bren2k wrote:

I agree - there are better options; Laura Pidcock would be my choice.

I get the frustration - but I genuinely think that Corbyn is trying to get us out of a Leave vs Remain mindset; he, quite rightly, wants to focus on a wider agenda - NHS, education, wage gap etc etc, and to reunite people who've been pitted against each other since the first referendum. It's the Tories who want to make this a Brexit election, and I happen to think he's right to resist that.

I'm fairly relaxed about his position; take No Deal off the table - extend A50 - hold an election - then let the people decide, without all the fairyland nonsense about how great it will be if we do leave, because 3 years on, that's self-evidently not the case; and equally, without the extreme project fear rhetoric. Just facts. If people still vote to Leave, negotiate the least damaging deal possible, and enact their will. That's likely to mean some form of customs union, which would instantly eliminate the need for the Irish backstop, removing the objections of many MP's.

The lairy, lounging, Bullingdon Boy approach to political debate has had a headlong collision with reality in the past week, and has proven to be an abject failure - other than confirming that Eton should be in special measures. It's time for some grown-up politic.

Eloquent as ever and I do like your "special measures" comment

However, I dont get that you can be happy for Labour and Corbyn to sway in either direction and whilst it's easy for you and me to say that there should be a "soft Brexit" ie a customs union, do you think that this would respect the referendum result and before answering, it may be worth considering whether your answer would be the same if you had voted "leave".
Whilst personally, I still havent been sold the Brexit ideal, there were 17+ million people who voted to leave and although "we" think that they may not have known what they were voting for, that doesn't change the result.
Personally, if I had voted leave, I would probably be more frustrated about the whole issue than I currently am.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:08 pm  

Just what would be the problem with a customs union? Unless you are one of those who won't have any forriner telling us what to do. They just prefer an unelected coward in Cummings making policy.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:25 pm  

tigertot wrote:

Just what would be the problem with a customs union? Unless you are one of those who won't have any forriner telling us what to do. They just prefer an unelected coward in Cummings making policy.

From a brexiteer pov... You can’t strike independent trade deals or have full regulatory control. And I think the European Court of Justice would still hold powers in the relevant areas.

One of the strange things about the Irish backstop situation, is that the EU think offering it to an non-EU state is a major concession, and the benefits are significant. Plus we don’t then need the backstop. Whereas brexiteers see it as a dastardly plot to ensnare us.

There’s no majority in the country or parliament for remain (not quite), none for this sort of soft Brexit, none for May’s harder Brexit and none for no deal. It’s nobody’s fault - our democracy just can’t multiple choice questions very well.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:33 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

From a brexiteer pov... You can’t strike independent trade deals or have full regulatory control. And I think the European Court of Justice would still hold powers in the relevant areas.

I understand that, But is that really so bad? At least we will be able to keep all those dark skinned Europeans out.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:43 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

However, I dont get that you can be happy for Labour and Corbyn to sway in either direction and whilst it's easy for you and me to say that there should be a "soft Brexit" ie a customs union, do you think that this would respect the referendum result and before answering, it may be worth considering whether your answer would be the same if you had voted "leave".
Whilst personally, I still havent been sold the Brexit ideal, there were 17+ million people who voted to leave and although "we" think that they may not have known what they were voting for, that doesn't change the result.
Personally, if I had voted leave, I would probably be more frustrated about the whole issue than I currently am.

I'm happy that our Leader is grown up enough to try to be collegiate, and is gamely trying to navigate a way through a very complicated issue, that was stupidly distilled into a binary question - that has proved impossible to answer. And he does all that without resorting to the language of traitors and D day beaches, and spitfires. It isn't popular with the MSM, or people who rent their opinions from the MSM, because they don't like nuance - because nuance makes for crap headlines and requires the gift of independent critical thought.

As for respecting the result - I guess in the froth and foam of labelling people either Brextremists or Remoaners, and alienating half the electorate in one fell swoop, there is some room for someone who is prepared to say - some of you voted to leave - the type of leave that's been sold to you simply isn't available - but here's what is; and see what people say.

So I am sanguine about Corbyn straddling the fence for now - partly because there are people on both side of the fence who need a fairer society, and partly because Boris Johnson has tried to leap straight over the fence to the right, and has snagged his knackers on it in the process; I'm not inclined to save him from that ignominy, and neither should Corbyn.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:59 pm  

Staying in the customs union and the single market fully respects the referendum result. Most of the most senior leave campaigners were saying we would stay in these because they knew it would be damaging to lose that access. It was Theresa May who added leaving them as a red line thus creating a Tory hard Brexit unacceptable to Labour in the commons but not hard enough for the extreme right of her party.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:00 pm  

tigertot wrote:

Just what would be the problem with a customs union? Unless you are one of those who won't have any forriner telling us what to do. They just prefer an unelected coward in Cummings making policy.

Playing devils advocate here but, a customs union is pretty much what we have now, albeit with additional financial and commercial constraints and if it were possible to have such an arrangement, without having to contribute to the EU "pot" then, I'm sure that this could be sold to "the masses".

However, with the ante increasingly ramped up during the referendum campaign and the drive for "independence" being stoked ever more vigorously, I'm not sure that enough on the "leave" side of the argument would accept this (customs union) as a solution especially, with Farage & Boris still trying to convince "us" that paying into the EU pot is no longer neccessary.
I think that the original argument moved on, well beyond the point of compromise and I'm really not sure how we could get back to a more central position.
As I said previously, it's not folk like me that you need to convince, it's a chunk of those who voted leave.