Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:44 pm  

We had public transport which was not profit based but under the Conservative ideology private is better. The obvious conclusion is that the public ethos is replaced by the profit motivation.
I believe that the majority of transport providers are owned by companies outside the U.K. like many industries that fell fowl of the rush to privatise. Thatcher worked on the greed is good by selling the industries shares knowing that for many individuals who acquired them would go for the instant return allowing them to be acquired by multi nationals.

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:01 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

For me I would subsidise these routes if we genuinely think it is so important - that way the cost can calculated correctly and the service agreed. If you make the obligations so onerous no private company will make money and you are back to your preferred model. The problem is in public ownership you will require to be all things to all people and costs will increase significantly.

See what an interesting conversation looks like when you don't divide it by party lines?

I actually think that if we're serious about a climate emergency - which all but swivel-eyed deniers now are - we have to see low carbon public transport as a priority; and that must include buses, to ensure connectivity for people who live in housing estates and rural areas - and can't easily get to train stations for the onward journey. Your electric trains I agree are a big part of that - but there has to be some consideration for getting to and from the train at each end of the journey.

I don't like your tough titty approach to people who don't have easy access - you can sniff all you like at public ownership, but the bus network under LA control was extensive and reliable; I used them to get all over West Yorks up to my mid 20's, and it worked very well. I imagine the busy routes subsidised the quiet ones - and if a private operator can't tolerate that because their driver is maximising shareholder value, then I think it's neither socialist nor Labour to consider doing it a different way - it's just pragmatic.

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:40 pm  

bren2k wrote:

See what an interesting conversation looks like when you don't divide it by party lines?

I actually think that if we're serious about a climate emergency - which all but swivel-eyed deniers now are - we have to see low carbon public transport as a priority; and that must include buses, to ensure connectivity for people who live in housing estates and rural areas - and can't easily get to train stations for the onward journey. Your electric trains I agree are a big part of that - but there has to be some consideration for getting to and from the train at each end of the journey.

I don't like your tough titty approach to people who don't have easy access - you can sniff all you like at public ownership, but the bus network under LA control was extensive and reliable; I used them to get all over West Yorks up to my mid 20's, and it worked very well. I imagine the busy routes subsidised the quiet ones - and if a private operator can't tolerate that because their driver is maximising shareholder value, then I think it's neither socialist nor Labour to consider doing it a different way - it's just pragmatic.

I fully understand your view about my hard-arsed attitude but I make no apologies for that. There was a reason buses left LA they simply couldn't run them economically and they were being subsidised by the rest of us and you either accept that as being OK or you do - as you say be pragmatic. A proper metro would ensure stations are close enough that walks between stations are manageable as in London - what I do like is park and ride that is great idea and criminally under used.

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:56 pm  

Sal Paradise what if you were a newly elected Tory MP in a rural town that has just gone Tory after voting Labour for years, and who voted Leave and Conservative because they were fed up of being left behind by urban-centric metropolitan types who just focused spending on cities and ignored the slowly decaying rural towns.

When they come to your constituency office and say "the bus service round here has been stripped away and stripped away for years, its like we're forgotten about, not everybody is well off enough to get a car, some folk need the buses to get about?"....what's your answer?

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:47 pm  

History suggests that what Johnson says never meets the legislation they produce.

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:59 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

Sal Paradise what if you were a newly elected Tory MP in a rural town that has just gone Tory after voting Labour for years, and who voted Leave and Conservative because they were fed up of being left behind by urban-centric metropolitan types who just focused spending on cities and ignored the slowly decaying rural towns.

When they come to your constituency office and say "the bus service round here has been stripped away and stripped away for years, its like we're forgotten about, not everybody is well off enough to get a car, some folk need the buses to get about?"....what's your answer?

I would ask them why did they vote for me - did I say I would improve the bus service no I didn't because I have very little influence on what the bus company ? What I did say I would improve the NHS which will positively benefit you, I said we would exit the EU and we have so another positive etc. Be honest with people you cannot be all things to all people that's is Socialist clap trap. Most people understand simple logic to suggest otherwise is saying they are members of ER.

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:12 pm  

We will build 40 new hospitals- lie, We will employ 50,000 new nurses - lie, we will be able to give 390 million pounds a week to the NHS - lie, we pay 1 billion each month to the EU - lie, we will not have any border checks between the U.K. and Nth Ireland - lie, I could list more but I think you get the idea.

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:14 am  

sally cinnamon wrote:

When they come to your constituency office and say "the bus service round here has been stripped away and stripped away for years, its like we're forgotten about, not everybody is well off enough to get a car, some folk need the buses to get about?"....what's your answer?

"LIFE IS TOUGH - I CAN'T PLEASE EVERYBODY - THE BUS COMPANY HAS TO MAKE A PROFIT!

Now get out of my office - wherever it is. Where even am I? What's this place called again?"

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:43 pm  

This will be exactly the characterisation of the Tories that brings them down in years to come, like it did in the 1990s.

They have campaigned on the basis of peoples disillusionment with the decline of their areas and of their services (which is largely driven by Conservative cuts anyway), and portrayed themselves as being on the side of the people not the establishment/business interests, to get people to vote for them.

The voters will expect a return on that and if the Tories revert back to dismissing their concerns with a variant of, "life isn't easy, deal with it" then it will undermine their whole narrative about being the ones 'in touch' with traditional working class communities.

[Mild Rover]

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:47 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

This will be exactly the characterisation of the Tories that brings them down in years to come, like it did in the 1990s.

They have campaigned on the basis of peoples disillusionment with the decline of their areas and of their services (which is largely driven by Conservative cuts anyway), and portrayed themselves as being on the side of the people not the establishment/business interests, to get people to vote for them.

The voters will expect a return on that and if the Tories revert back to dismissing their concerns with a variant of, "life isn't easy, deal with it" then it will undermine their whole narrative about being the ones 'in touch' with traditional working class communities.

Johnson is, from a policy perspective, an empty vessel. The cabinet is disempowered, having accepted the hegemony of Cummings stable of SPADs.

On balance i’m looking at this as better than it could have been. Cummings isn’t a Tory and oddball though he is, if it keeps Raab and Patel from pulling the levers then so much the better - I can live with that particular democratic deficit.

There’s a question over how well Johnson’s ego will take being widely seen as a ‘comedy clown mascot’ PM. If things start to go badly, then that’s bad by definition and Cumming’s programme will be chucked overboard pdq. On the other hand, if things go well and Cummings is getting the credit, will that slake the thirst that has driven Boris Johnson, a man of basically no political conviction, to pursue his current role?

If this is to have any longevity, then Laurel has make sure Hardy gets applause.