[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:01 pm  

tigertot wrote:

I understand that, But is that really so bad? At least we will be able to keep all those dark skinned Europeans out.

To me, not at all. But I voted to remain.

The fairly disparate Brexit coalition all want their own bit of Brexit. If your vote was mainly for an independent trade policy, then cutting EU immigration might be a price worth paying rather than being some sort a consolation if you don’t get it.

A lot of Brexiteers want different things from Brexit, and May chucked each major group a red line, and asking for any of them back will of course be ‘BETRAYAL!’

While I think Leavers do often have a legitimate complaint that they’re stereotyped, i also think a fair proportion fail to recognise that many of their frustrations arise from different and even conflicting priorities on their own side, rather than just from remainer resistance. Many came from opposite ends of the traditional political-social-economic spectrum, so they’re probably more heterogeneous in their motivations than they realise themselves in some cases.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:24 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

While I think Leavers do often have a legitimate complaint that they’re stereotyped, i also think a fair proportion fail to recognise that many of their frustrations arise from different and even conflicting priorities on their own side, rather than just from remainer resistance. Many came from opposite ends of the traditional political-social-economic spectrum, so they’re probably more heterogeneous in their motivations than they realise themselves in some cases.

I'm not sure I agree. My experience, from radio/TV voxpox to the pink rinse brigade where I live & my (Tory Councillor) in-laws live, it is always just about 'taking back control' or 'controlling our borders'. It is never expanded on. There is a huge, inefficient, corrupt, self serving beast in Brussels trying to tell us what to do every minute of our lives.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:48 pm  

tigertot wrote:

I'm not sure I agree. My experience, from radio/TV voxpox to the pink rinse brigade where I live & my (Tory Councillor) in-laws live, it is always just about 'taking back control' or 'controlling our borders'. It is never expanded on. There is a huge, inefficient, corrupt, self serving beast in Brussels trying to tell us what to do every minute of our lives.

Yeah, but it is then about what you do with that control. There’s a striking diversity amongst Brexiteers about what post-Brexit Britain should look like. From the a Tax Haven-cum-Workhouse version to a state-ist, save our steel industry interventionist version. They might agree that the EU is the problem and unite in what they’re against, but it is harder to agree on what they’re for and where to go next.

Which is fine; people have different viewpoints and priorities. But it is a stumbling block in this case because 48% didn’t want to leave and the 52% who did can’t choose a single direction to initially get us through the door.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:06 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

Yeah, but it is then about what you do with that control. There’s a striking diversity amongst Brexiteers about what post-Brexit Britain should look like. From the a Tax Haven-cum-Workhouse version to a state-ist, save our steel industry interventionist version. They might agree that the EU is the problem and unite in what they’re against, but it is harder to agree on what they’re for and where to go next.

Oh I agree entirely with that. But if we had had the depth of those discussions 4 years ago, & then agreed which version we were going to get, the outcome of the vote would have been significantly different.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:25 pm  

tigertot wrote:

Oh I agree entirely with that. But if we had had the depth of those discussions 4 years ago, & then agreed which version we were going to get, the outcome of the vote would have been significantly different.

No doubt.

In fairness, a good slogan will tend to win out against a nuanced argument. And the Conservative manifesto position was an in-out vote.

But it has been one massive cock-up from start to... wherever we are now, which is a long way from the finish, I fear. I understand and share the desire to move on and refocus on the domestic agenda, but we’ve still got the main course of the future relationship negotiations to get through. Mind you, if we do no-deal out, they could brief and brusque.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:46 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

Yeah, but it is then about what you do with that control. There’s a striking diversity amongst Brexiteers about what post-Brexit Britain should look like. From the a Tax Haven-cum-Workhouse version to a state-ist, save our steel industry interventionist version. They might agree that the EU is the problem and unite in what they’re against, but it is harder to agree on what they’re for and where to go next.

Which is fine; people have different viewpoints and priorities. But it is a stumbling block in this case because 48% didn’t want to leave and the 52% who did can’t choose a single direction to initially get us through the door.

The most frustrating thing about some Brexiteers are the number of times they confidently pontificate on something complicated that they've spent two minutes Googling. Customs Unions, Single Markets, modal shift in cross-Channel traffic, infrastructure at ports, how importing goods works, which bits of paper you need and when, what the rules on free movement are. There is nothing they aren't afraid to expound upon in bizarrely confident terms, shouting down those who actually work in these areas and know what they are talking about.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:04 am  

Brexit isn't about Brexit anymore and probably never was - Brexit is about the political elite re-exerting their power. You now have a situation whereby they have decided we cannot leave and they now don't want to test the views of the nation on their behaviour. Anyone who thinks this is about what is best for the country is delusional this is about the politicians resting back control from the public. We might as well not bother with elections the politicians will do what they want. They move parties willy nilly some have represented 3 parties in the last six months such is their distain for the electorate - Phillip Lee is now a Liberal 5% voted for the Liberals in his constituency in 2017!!

You have a speaker who is supposed to be impartial who is anything but impartial - closing parliament down has been tested twice in the courts and despite Bercow's protestations has been proved to be legal.

All this outrage about the 21 Tory grandees losing the whip is just the political elite protecting their own - what has being an ex chancellor or the grandson of Winston Churchill got to do with anything? They voted against their own party what did they really expect to happen? In the commercial world you would either resigned or been sacked if you actively persued an agenda that was contrary to the agreed policy.

How could the Tories campaign on a manifesto of leaving when their own MPs would actively try to stop on a matter of personal belief (sic) Johnson had no option.

Finally you have a Labour party who say on one hand they would campaign for remain but would try and secure a deal as well - really what deal would that be? How can a party that wants to remain negotiate an exit with any conviction - its a ludicrous notion. They have been crying out for an election since 2017 now the suddenly don't want one - why if they genuinely believe no deal is not wanted and the public hate Boris they should walk it? Problem is Corbyn is 20 points behind Boris and Labour know with Corbyn in charge they have no chance. Even a vote of no confidence wouldn't lead to Corbyn being PM - if it would that is the way he would go - anything but a GE.

Ghost maybe right about the current situation in respect of paperwork - one thing is for certain those rules would change very quickly to ensure the movement of goods i.e. within days and within three months the whole system will have been overhauled. These countries change the currency arrangements and we have put several men on the moon don't suggest this is such problem it will take years to resolve.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:24 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Brexit isn't about Brexit anymore and probably never was - Brexit is about the political elite re-exerting their power. You now have a situation whereby they have decided we cannot leave and they now don't want to test the views of the nation on their behaviour. Anyone who thinks this is about what is best for the country is delusional this is about the politicians resting back control from the public. We might as well not bother with elections the politicians will do what they want. They move parties willy nilly some have represented 3 parties in the last six months such is their distain for the electorate - Phillip Lee is now a Liberal 5% voted for the Liberals in his constituency in 2017!!

You have a speaker who is supposed to be impartial who is anything but impartial - closing parliament down has been tested twice in the courts and despite Bercow's protestations has been proved to be legal.

All this outrage about the 21 Tory grandees losing the whip is just the political elite protecting their own - what has being an ex chancellor or the grandson of Winston Churchill got to do with anything? They voted against their own party what did they really expect to happen? In the commercial world you would either resigned or been sacked if you actively persued an agenda that was contrary to the agreed policy.

How could the Tories campaign on a manifesto of leaving when their own MPs would actively try to stop on a matter of personal belief (sic) Johnson had no option.

The problem is you Brexiteers have fundamentally changed the terms of the vote. And you are now deliberately conflating stopping no deal with stopping Brexit.

You have absolutely no mandate from either the referendum or the last election to take this country out of the European Union without a deal for reasons of politcal expediency and/or ideological purity. This wasn't something that the leavers campaigned for during the referendum and specifically was not in the Tory manifesto in 2017 which promised "a smooth and orderly departure".

Turning around now and saying the MPs voting to stop a drop-dead, disorderly departure are betraying the result or trying to stop Brexit is a lie. Corbyn is not a pro-European and had the Tories not gone for first their hard Brexit deal and now their no-deal they would have been able to assemble a Commons majority months ago.

Lastly you bemoan democracy then declare how appropriate it was to deselect and remove the whip from Tory MPs who voted with their conscience against no deal. MPs are formally representatives of the people, their loyalty rests with what they judge to be best for their constituents not what the party says, especially when the party never sought public assent for what they are doing. It's just another example of back-to-front thinking from Brexiteers who are so rabid in wanting Brexit that they are willing to abandon logic and what used to be fundamental principles.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:01 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

The problem is you Brexiteers have fundamentally changed the terms of the vote. And you are now deliberately conflating stopping no deal with stopping Brexit.

You have absolutely no mandate from either the referendum or the last election to take this country out of the European Union without a deal for reasons of politcal expediency and/or ideological purity. This wasn't something that the leavers campaigned for during the referendum and specifically was not in the Tory manifesto in 2017 which promised "a smooth and orderly departure".

Turning around now and saying the MPs voting to stop a drop-dead, disorderly departure are betraying the result or trying to stop Brexit is a lie. Corbyn is not a pro-European and had the Tories not gone for first their hard Brexit deal and now their no-deal they would have been able to assemble a Commons majority months ago.

Lastly you bemoan democracy then declare how appropriate it was to deselect and remove the whip from Tory MPs who voted with their conscience against no deal. MPs are formally representatives of the people, their loyalty rests with what they judge to be best for their constituents not what the party says, especially when the party never sought public assent for what they are doing. It's just another example of back-to-front thinking from Brexiteers who are so rabid in wanting Brexit that they are willing to abandon logic and what used to be fundamental principles.

There were no terms on the vote - it was a simple stay or leave and there was plenty of doomsday scenarios presented by the remain "project fear" side. No deal was a distinct possibly but remainers such as you don't credit leavers with the ability to think it through - I always thought and I said on here many times we would have to leave with no deal, the EU were never going to offer us a preferential deal.

70% of MPs don't want the UK to leave the EU to suggest they have turned on their heels and helped to facility leaving the EU is a lie. Labour set conditions that were impossible to achieve so to say they want to leave is laughable.

MPs are elected on a party manifesto - not on their own personal agenda. They are first and foremost representing the agenda of their party - if that is not the case why have any manifesto at all? You can have the greatest Tory politician on the planet with the greatest agenda put him/her in Bolsover they aren't going to win. Phillip Lamb now represents 5% of his electorate so if your theory is correct that they represent their constituents and not the party how does that work?

Your views are typical of remainers who think they knew best and the leavers didn't have the intellectual capacity to think it through. Nobody actuals knows how bad it will be - it has never happened before - even the BOE are starting to soften their earlier doomsday scenarios. Your certainty of complete chaos, miles and miles of queues at the port simply have no basis in fact only conjecture. Will it be tough of course will the economy totally collapse unlikely.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:10 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

70% of MPs don't want the UK to leave the EU to suggest they have turned on their heels and helped to facility leaving the EU is a lie. Labour set conditions that were impossible to achieve so to say they want to leave is laughable.

The MPs kicked out of the Tory party were remainers who voted over and over and over again for the deal to leave. When presented with leaving on a disastrous basis they said no.

The reason we haven't left already is nothing to do with remainers, it's because the hard right voted against the leave deal. They are the true traitors and are somehow still in the Tory party. I don't recall you demanding they were purged when they voted against their party earlier in the year? Or is purging only convenient when it suits a particular ideological agenda?