Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:07 am  

Mild Rover wrote:

Perhaps they don’t, but it’s not them asking.

Do you think May’s deal is good? Or merely better than crashing out?

FWIW, given that Cameron’s first shot was into the deep rough, she went to grab an iron and pulled out a putter (that’s the election), and her caddy is pointing enthusiastically towards the water hazard (that’s the ERG), I think she’s done alright.

It'll do a job. We were never going to get the same terms is being in the EU despite what some said. If we can get out and continue a healthy working and trading relationship with them, we'll do fine.

In fact whatever happens, eventually we'll be fine. Economies adapt and recover. The real issue is the severity of the impact upon leaving and the time it takes to recover. May's deal reduces that impact; a no-deal maximises it. We've been through some devastating recessions that probably overshadow any Brexit, including 2007/8.

They say entire wars can swing on a single moment on a single battlefield. IMO the 2015 election swung on 2 moments: when some dipsh*t in Tory HQ decided this was a good time to announce their new adult social care policy (actually not a bad idea in principle bearing in mind the social care crisis), and then when some hack labelled it a 'dementia tax'. What should have been a strong win turned sour in an instant.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:49 am  

tigertot wrote:

Bless the ickle snowflake right wingers getting outraged. What Corbyn did was wrong. What he should have done was walk across the floor & snotted the stupid cow. An outraged party & woman who only a few days ago gave the whip back to 2 MPs who had sent thousands of explicit sexual messages. A woman whose actions are destroying the country, its health, education & social services, killing hundreds of homeless, putting record numbers on the streets, yet thinks it is acceptable to behave like the privileged upper class ponce in a high school drama lesson, cheered on by her parasitic fags, in the supposed home of intellectual debate.

As always your posting drags the debate down into the gutter. You are incapable of posting without cheap shots and jibes. It’s quite obvious what Corbyn said , he should just apologise and get on with life. Instead we have to put up with bare faced lies by him and various other Labour stalwarts. As for killing hundreds of people, I must have missed that on the news.
A majority of rough sleepers in London are from east Europe. If you go to Paris the problem is much more severe also Brussels. That’s the result of this wonderful European social experiment people with no money or job prospects are allowed free movement. This weeks new statesman which is free online ,has a letter from john denham the former Labour minister in which he highlights being called xenophobic . This for outlining concerns that self employed building workers had payments reduced by half, due to the influx of cheap European Labour. Heard Diane Abbot on the today programmer the other morning, incompetence on a grand scale springs to mind. The prospects of her, Lammy , Corbyn etc etc performing in government would be hilarious. On second thoughts it would turn us into the European equivalent of Venezuela. Meanwhile in the real world the German car industry is expressing real concerns about us leaving the eu. Likewise the Irish business community. Some pizza restaurants have discovered mozzarella from Wales is just as good as the Italian varieties. One of my pals has a wine importing business. He is being bombarded with calls from non eu suppliers of wine offering highly competitive deals . The uk business community will adapt and thrive if allowed.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:25 am  

Cronus wrote:

It'll do a job. We were never going to get the same terms is being in the EU despite what some said. If we can get out and continue a healthy working and trading relationship with them, we'll do fine.

In fact whatever happens, eventually we'll be fine. Economies adapt and recover. The real issue is the severity of the impact upon leaving and the time it takes to recover. May's deal reduces that impact; a no-deal maximises it. We've been through some devastating recessions that probably overshadow any Brexit, including 2007/8.

They say entire wars can swing on a single moment on a single battlefield. IMO the 2015 election swung on 2 moments: when some dipsh*t in Tory HQ decided this was a good time to announce their new adult social care policy (actually not a bad idea in principle bearing in mind the social care crisis), and then when some hack labelled it a 'dementia tax'. What should have been a strong win turned sour in an instant.

I agree, we’ll adapt. It’ll involve some economic pain, but a majority indicated a willingness to endure that in the referendum in return for more sovereignty imo. While some remainers claim that nobody voted to be poorer, I think a lot will accept that - to a point. I think no deal would offer enough sudden and acute pain that it goes beyond that point.

We’re not in great shape to endure it either. The recession and austerity that followed the banking crisis bit hard. Osbourne’s ‘we’re all in it together’ - I can’t even laugh at that. May might genuinely have cared about the Just About Managings, but Brexit has been a political black hole throughout her tenure. A relative of mine is a teacher in a deprived part of Manchester, and they’re told not to ask the kids if they had a nice Christmas in January. And it’s not even political correctness gone mad - it’s so as not to embarrass those that had a giftless and hungry holiday.

Maybe changes to immigration rules will create new and better job opportunities for those struggling families. Or maybe business will demand labour deregulation to make us more competitive in a more challenging environment - and we’ll adapt that way.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:23 pm  

Perfect example of Labour's current conflicted situation and the deluded naivety of the new wave of Corbynites and Remainers. The Guardian print an interview in which Corbyn confirms Brexit would still go ahead if they won a snap election (albeit following their fanciful renegotiation). Their facebook page is now full of shocked Labour supporters who DIDN'T KNOW Corbyn is - and always has been - a Euro-sceptic. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... leaving-eu You couldn't make it up. That’s my vote gone. Card carrying member, completely disenfranchised. I’ve been a member since 1974. I’m cancelling my membership after that statement. He isn’t listening to Labour members or Labour voters This is ludicrous and another example of Corbyn’s naivety. Time for change To all the Labour voters/members feeling totally disillusioned, I'd suggest you write to JC. That's what I'm planning to do. So not listening to the Labour grass roots then.. ? I’m a labour member. Corbyn just lost my support. Can the Labour party have a vote of no confidence in their leader? Farcical I feel politically homeless That's it I give up bollox to corbyn That's me cancelling my labour party membership, fck Parliament, Caroline Lucas you are forever my choice. As a life time Labour Party member and voter for 50 years I am extremely angry, disappointed and disillusioned by Mr Corbyn's words Great. That's me not voting labour then. Lib Dems, arise! And that's the sound of half a million membership cards being torn up. I just cancelled my membership of the International Labour Party Supported Labour all my voting life, but I can’t support them with this leader. He has now lost my support, he’s not listening just like May. Heartbroken. I’m cancelling my Labour Party membership until labour support staying in Europe

Perfect example of Labour's current conflicted situation and the deluded naivety of the new wave of Corbynites and Remainers. The Guardian print an interview in which Corbyn confirms Brexit would still go ahead if they won a snap election (albeit following their fanciful renegotiation). Their facebook page is now full of shocked Labour supporters who DIDN'T KNOW Corbyn is - and always has been - a Euro-sceptic. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... leaving-eu You couldn't make it up. That’s my vote gone. Card carrying member, completely disenfranchised. I’ve been a member since 1974. I’m cancelling my membership after that statement. He isn’t listening to Labour members or Labour voters This is ludicrous and another example of Corbyn’s naivety. Time for change To all the Labour voters/members feeling totally disillusioned, I'd suggest you write to JC. That's what I'm planning to do. So not listening to the Labour grass roots then.. ? I’m a labour member. Corbyn just lost my support. Can the Labour party have a vote of no confidence in their leader? Farcical I feel politically homeless That's it I give up bollox to corbyn That's me cancelling my labour party membership, fck Parliament, Caroline Lucas you are forever my choice. As a life time Labour Party member and voter for 50 years I am extremely angry, disappointed and disillusioned by Mr Corbyn's words Great. That's me not voting labour then. Lib Dems, arise! And that's the sound of half a million membership cards being torn up. I just cancelled my membership of the International Labour Party Supported Labour all my voting life, but I can’t support them with this leader. He has now lost my support, he’s not listening just like May. Heartbroken. I’m cancelling my Labour Party membership until labour support staying in Europe

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:45 pm  

Cronus wrote: Perfect example of Labour's current conflicted situation and the deluded naivety of the new wave of Corbynites and Remainers. The Guardian print an interview in which Corbyn confirms Brexit would still go ahead if they won a snap election (albeit following their fanciful renegotiation). Their facebook page is now full of shocked Labour supporters who DIDN'T KNOW Corbyn is - and always has been - a Euro-sceptic. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... leaving-eu You couldn't make it up. You take glee from that but, if reversed it could be comments from the Troy Cabinet, which is far more worrying. Corbyn has been and still remains on the fence, desperate for his shot at "the big time" in the UK and much like many leading Troies, he is bothered only about himself and feck the rest of us. I do agree that their "fanciful renegotiation" is just more political rhetoric, spewed out to try and undermine Mrs May's attempt at getting her deal throigh Parliament. The main issue is just what will happen if/when her deal is voted down. It does look increasingly like her deal or no deal, unless "we" decide to ask for more time and even then, we will probably be left with the same choice.

Cronus wrote: Perfect example of Labour's current conflicted situation and the deluded naivety of the new wave of Corbynites and Remainers. The Guardian print an interview in which Corbyn confirms Brexit would still go ahead if they won a snap election (albeit following their fanciful renegotiation). Their facebook page is now full of shocked Labour supporters who DIDN'T KNOW Corbyn is - and always has been - a Euro-sceptic. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... leaving-eu You couldn't make it up. You take glee from that but, if reversed it could be comments from the Troy Cabinet, which is far more worrying. Corbyn has been and still remains on the fence, desperate for his shot at "the big time" in the UK and much like many leading Troies, he is bothered only about himself and feck the rest of us. I do agree that their "fanciful renegotiation" is just more political rhetoric, spewed out to try and undermine Mrs May's attempt at getting her deal throigh Parliament. The main issue is just what will happen if/when her deal is voted down. It does look increasingly like her deal or no deal, unless "we" decide to ask for more time and even then, we will probably be left with the same choice.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:28 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

You take glee from that but, if reversed it could be comments from the Troy Cabinet, which is far more worrying.

Not really. There is division in the Cabinet, but at least the Tory factions actually know what they're supporting.

Increased political engagement is great, but clearly too many people have been swept along by a mix of Corbyn-mania and the Brexit vote - and assumed that as a left-wing party, Labour were for remain. Those sheep singing 'oooh Jeremy Corbyn' at Glastonbury are the clueless fodder Labour are relying on.

Corbyn has been and still remains on the fence, desperate for his shot at "the big time" in the UK and much like many leading Troies, he is bothered only about himself and feck the rest of us.
I do agree that their "fanciful renegotiation" is just more political rhetoric, spewed out to try and undermine Mrs May's attempt at getting her deal throigh Parliament.

The main issue is just what will happen if/when her deal is voted down.
It does look increasingly like her deal or no deal, unless "we" decide to ask for more time and even then, we will probably be left with the same choice.

He's not on the fence at all. He's pro-leave, he just doesn't shout it too loudly at the risk of losing his new wave of young fans.

We're heading for no-deal. Simple as that. If every MP was allowed to vote on the best course of action they should vote for the deal as a reasonable way out. Problem is, they're all being whipped to vote it down in the hope of forcing an election. It's a selfish gamble that will backfire on them. We'll have the worst exit and the public will see who voted to send us there.

To think I voted Labour once.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:40 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Not really. There is division in the Cabinet, but at least the Tory factions actually know what they're supporting.

Increased political engagement is great, but clearly too many people have been swept along by a mix of Corbyn-mania and the Brexit vote - and assumed that as a left-wing party, Labour were for remain. Those sheep singing 'oooh Jeremy Corbyn' at Glastonbury are the clueless fodder Labour are relying on.

He's not on the fence at all. He's pro-leave, he just doesn't shout it too loudly at the risk of losing his new wave of young fans.

We're heading for no-deal. Simple as that. If every MP was allowed to vote on the best course of action they should vote for the deal as a reasonable way out. Problem is, they're all being whipped to vote it down in the hope of forcing an election. It's a selfish gamble that will backfire on them. We'll have the worst exit and the public will see who voted to send us there.

To think I voted Labour once.

Well the 14th of January will be interesting!

I’m surprised they’re restarting the debate. Is owt going to change over Christmas? Because nowt much has changed since the vote was postponed. Except the clock running down.

Are they going to have those indicative votes? I think that’d be a decent idea even if only to show that no option commands a majority.

I do think, even as a Labour voter, that their position looks daft now. If they’re going to table a motion of no confidence, they have to do it ASAP. Fancying about waiting for some imaginary perfectly opportune moment isn’t a good look from any perspective.

They could do it as a ‘we think this deal is suboptimal, but we’ll vote for it holding our noses if we can’t win a no-confidence vote’. Then it’s up to the Tory brextremists to kill the deal and their own government or learn to live with it.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:37 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Not really. There is division in the Cabinet, but at least the Tory factions actually know what they're supporting.

Increased political engagement is great, but clearly too many people have been swept along by a mix of Corbyn-mania and the Brexit vote - and assumed that as a left-wing party, Labour were for remain. Those sheep singing 'oooh Jeremy Corbyn' at Glastonbury are the clueless fodder Labour are relying on.

He's not on the fence at all. He's pro-leave, he just doesn't shout it too loudly at the risk of losing his new wave of young fans.

We're heading for no-deal. Simple as that. If every MP was allowed to vote on the best course of action they should vote for the deal as a reasonable way out. Problem is, they're all being whipped to vote it down in the hope of forcing an election. It's a selfish gamble that will backfire on them. We'll have the worst exit and the public will see who voted to send us there.

To think I voted Labour once.

I know that the boat has long since sailed but, instead of Mrs May just doing it her way, with the total exclusion of all other parties and their MP's, do you not think that she should have tried to engage just as many opposition MP's at the outset, especially those who were staunch "leavers" from strong "leave" areas

Instead, she alienated pretty much everyone and we will all pay the price of her stupidity (at least Corbyn got that right, although he didn't have the balls to admit what he had said).

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:05 pm  

Somehow or other we seem to be landed with the worst prime minister and the worst leader of the opposition ever witnessed.
Depressingly coupled with the fact both major parties have cornered the market in petty small minded individuals . Whose lack of talent is plainly on view to everyone. Mentioned in today’s press Laura Pidcock to succeed Corbyn at some stage. Absolutely unbelievable, let’s not forget our scots national party, some of them don’t seem to attend parliament very much.
If as likely mays proposal is voted down what next. Not much is the answer, suggested a people’s vote, well we have had one of those. Let parliament have a free vote , on what proposal ?. Leave without a deal, nobody wants ,that even the eu haven’t the stomach for that. Teresa May after the vote should have prepared for a no deal scenario. Hiring more customs staff and enlarging port and airport facilities. That way she would have negotiated from a relative position of strength. Obviously if she was unable to secure a good deal we would leave and trade on wto terms and conditions. As for Corbyn claiming he can negotiate a deal , whilst keeping us in the customs union without meeting eu rules regarding free movement of people. An absolute bare faced lie. Meanwhile in the real world after the USA Britain is the largest importer of German cars. A large portion of Irish exports to Europe have to cross the uk to reach our channel ports. This in order to deliver to mainland Europe. These are two of many advantages Teresa May has failed to utilise.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:51 pm  

This thread is ace. I should basically stop listening to what experts say because Cronus states the opposite yet he posts with authority like he knows what he is talking about.