Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:40 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

From what i’ve read, the EU would be very wary of having another Swiss-style deal. May’s red lines rule out everything below Canada anyway, of course.

I can see why you’d want some flexibility in your negotiating position without being too tied to a single predetermined set of objectives that have been announced publicly. Although May herself clearly felt differently and chucked that away as she charged off in her own direction with not many feeling obliged or minded to follow.

May's red lines were not part of the referendum and shouldn't be our starting point now she has gone - the fact that she put them in place, guaranteeing a very hard form of Brexit, is the root of the trouble we find ourselves in. She could have approached it more moderately, forsaken some of the far right wing but found support from Labour. As the revised compromise version of her bill, which they are trying to revive, would probably have done.

All of which is a reminder that the only reason we're still in the EU is because people like Rees-Mogg and, for a time, Johnson himself, voted down Brexit bills which their party had agreed was party policy. But little bit of betrayal of leave voters and hypocrisy given their current stance doesn't seem to get mentioned by the Brexit ultras.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:02 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

May's red lines were not part of the referendum and shouldn't be our starting point now she has gone - the fact that she put them in place, guaranteeing a very hard form of Brexit, is the root of the trouble we find ourselves in. She could have approached it more moderately, forsaken some of the far right wing but found support from Labour. As the revised compromise version of her bill, which they are trying to revive, would probably have done.

All of which is a reminder that the only reason we're still in the EU is because people like Rees-Mogg and, for a time, Johnson himself, voted down Brexit bills which their party had agreed was party policy. But little bit of betrayal of leave voters and hypocrisy given their current stance doesn't seem to get mentioned by the Brexit ultras.

They probably shouldn’t, but unless Labour can cobble together some sort coalition (tough with Corbyn as leader and agreement not extending much further than no to no deal), they probably will.

May could have taken a more moderate line, but as it got more necessary after she lost the Tory majority, it also got more difficult because she’d also lost so much authority. From her perspective, Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell probably inspire as much trust and fellow feeling as Johnson, Raab and Rees-Mogg do in me. The middle ground in UK politics, where a deal could have been done has been hollowed out.

Maybe the DUP will allow a Northern Ireland only backstop. If Johnson can bring any sort of vaguely credible deal back to parliament, it’ll put Labour in an invidious position.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:22 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

May's red lines were not part of the referendum and shouldn't be our starting point now she has gone - the fact that she put them in place, guaranteeing a very hard form of Brexit, is the root of the trouble we find ourselves in. She could have approached it more moderately, forsaken some of the far right wing but found support from Labour. As the revised compromise version of her bill, which they are trying to revive, would probably have done.

All of which is a reminder that the only reason we're still in the EU is because people like Rees-Mogg and, for a time, Johnson himself, voted down Brexit bills which their party had agreed was party policy. But little bit of betrayal of leave voters and hypocrisy given their current stance doesn't seem to get mentioned by the Brexit ultras.

The problem with staying in the single market and the customs union is that you are leaving but you are not really leaving. The single market allows for free movement of labour, at the time of the referendum this was a major concern for leave voters - not sure it is quite the issue it was. It also leaves the UK answerable to the ECJ which is a major issue to this day.

The customs union is a problem in Ireland - sacrificing the north seems a reasonable solution to me if we want to accept May's deal.

The problem is we were never going to get the best of both worlds and as such leaving with no deal initially seems the best solution. Both parties can then truly assess the impact and then negotiations can start from a position of actual happenings not "project fear".

Both parties want their cake and to eat it - the EU want our money and to exert control without UK influence and we want free trade but no contribution - irresistible force and immovable object.

[Pumpetypump]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:36 pm  

I know some people like to claim that cutting one leg off will cause a terrible limp. But it's only if we have the courage to cut a leg off that we can see how bad that limp is. Then we'll be in a position to choose which prosthetic to use which probably won't be all that bad considering.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:00 pm  

Pumpetypump wrote:

I know some people like to claim that cutting one leg off will cause a terrible limp. But it's only if we have the courage to cut a leg off that we can see how bad that limp is. Then we'll be in a position to choose which prosthetic to use which probably won't be all that bad considering.

I'd check first that it was the leg causing the limp, because if not cutting the leg off wont solve it.
Sometimes you can blame the leg when in fact it's something else that's causing the pain and hurt your struggling with and blaming the leg and cutting it off might not solve it.
Oh and BTW
Whilst 17.4 million 3 years ago may want to have their leg cut off there were 16.8 plus 12m who didn't vote along with the extra million or so that are now eligible to have an opinion who werent back then, who are very much against having their leg cut off without knowing the full facts.
I'm more than happy now I have explored those facts with my decision 3 years ago not to cut it off but to have a 2nd opinion and would suggest it may be a good idea to ask those people again to confirm they actually want it cut off.
And the leg analogy downtown really work when (and I can only be honest here) I feel the vast majority of people voted to cut MY leg off without knowing what they know now.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:06 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

I'd check first that it was the leg causing the limp, because if not cutting the leg off wont solve it.
Sometimes you can blame the leg when in fact it's something else that's causing the pain and hurt your struggling with and blaming the leg and cutting it off might not solve it.
Oh and BTW
Whilst 17.4 million 3 years ago may want to have their leg cut off there were 16.8 plus 12m who didn't vote along with the extra million or so that are now eligible to have an opinion who werent back then, who are very much against having their leg cut off without knowing the full facts.
I'm more than happy now I have explored those facts with my decision 3 years ago not to cut it off but to have a 2nd opinion and would suggest it may be a good idea to ask those people again to confirm they actually want it cut off.
And the leg analogy downtown really work when (and I can only be honest here) I feel the vast majority of people voted to cut MY leg off without knowing what they know now.

The 3 years that have passed, those that didn't vote and those that have become eligible (plus those that may no longer be able to vote) are utterly irrelevant.
Any referendum can only be a snapshot at the time.
The whole problem that we have currently is that Parliament wont put through the deal that was put before it (May's deal) and has now passed a law preventing no deal and until Boris is able to agree a new deal with the EU and his time is running out pretty quickly, we remain stuck in limbo.
There should be a seperate discussion about the lies that were peddled by the "leave" group but, quite frankly, the "remain" camp were so bloody arrogant and lazy with their campaign that, they couldn't persuade the majority of the voting public to side with them.
The Leave camp all insist that "they knew what they were voting for" and I'm sure that they did but, what they certainly didn't know and still dont know is what they are going to get.
What we know for sure is that there was NEVER going to be an extra £350million a week for the NHS
There is still no viable solution for the Irish backstop and this was not mentioned by leave or remain during the referendum
and Turkey, despite being "about to join" the EU are not even a small step closer to doing so.

The one certainty is that Brexit has made our country more divided and a less safe place to live so, it's all been really worth while so far.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:16 pm  

How has Brexit made it a "less safe place to live"?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:13 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The customs union is a problem in Ireland - sacrificing the north seems a reasonable solution to me if we want to accept May's deal.

Ahh there speaks the soul of the Conservative and Unionist party. There can't be too many of the party's principles left now?

I think many or even most people in Northern Ireland would be happy for us to draw the EU line up the middle of the Irish Sea as long as they also remain part of the UK. The amount of capital and investment which would flow to Belfast would make them an economic powerhouse almost overnight.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:47 pm  

IR80 wrote:

How has Brexit made it a "less safe place to live"?

Hate crimes have increased by 41% since the referendum

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:11 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Hate crimes have increased by 41% since the referendum

You mean REPORTED hate crimes, and if you believe you can attribute that to tje EU referendum you are borrowing straws to clutch at.

Remoaners will turn any statistic to their cause. I wanted to remain, we have voted leave, people need to deal with it, just as I'll have to deal with it if Labour win a GE again in my lifetime.