Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:40 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

With the economy in such dire straits I presume the government will request an extension to the transition period rather than dump businesses in to no deal when they have been unable to prepare for it?

Or will they decide that the extra hit to the economy will be worth it for their political purposes and just tell businesses and households that they have to suck up the extra costs and red tape.

With how dire things are likely to be for both the UK and the EU, any contraction in the ecconomy for either side will be lost and buried in the fall out from Coronavirus.

On the basis that the UK has refused offers of help from the EU in sourcing PPE and Ventilators, it seems pretty certain that despite all the other issues, Brexit is indeed still going ahead at full pace, after all, there isn't anything else that's too important to deal with

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:49 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

With how dire things are likely to be for both the UK and the EU, any contraction in the ecconomy for either side will be lost and buried in the fall out from Coronavirus.

On the basis that the UK has refused offers of help from the EU in sourcing PPE and Ventilators, it seems pretty certain that despite all the other issues, Brexit is indeed still going ahead at full pace, after all, there isn't anything else that's too important to deal with

The difference is coronavirus is a temporary shock, falling out with no/ a minimal deal is a permanent shock.

It will increase costs of doing business, lead to log jams at the border, disruption to supplies of food and other essential goods, lead to backlogs of lorries on the roads.

At a time when businesses are crippled from the coronavirus shock and desperately needing to bounce back, layering that on top of them will finish many of them off.

Also we saw what happened when panic buying started when there wasn't a disruption to food/grocery supplies. What will happen when supplies actually are disrupted.

I suspect the government thinks there is political capital to be made out of baiting Starmer in to calling for an extension, so they can say "at a time of a pandemic, the Labour establishment are still trying to overturn the result of the referendum", but then if early next year it seems that other countries are starting to get their economies moving again and we're hit with major disruption it will be hard to sell that as a political necessity.

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:27 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

With how dire things are likely to be for both the UK and the EU, any contraction in the ecconomy for either side will be lost and buried in the fall out from Coronavirus.

On the basis that the UK has refused offers of help from the EU in sourcing PPE and Ventilators, it seems pretty certain that despite all the other issues, Brexit is indeed still going ahead at full pace, after all, there isn't anything else that's too important to deal with

Do we appear to have a shortage of ventilators? not according to the NHS and the shortage of PPE now seems to have been a bit of a red herring used to bash the government too.

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:55 am  

Tour de France tot ake place in August...

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:00 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Do we appear to have a shortage of ventilators? not according to the NHS and the shortage of PPE now seems to have been a bit of a red herring used to bash the government too.

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it - there was absolutely and without any shadow of a doubt, a shortage of PPE; my own supplier told me that what stock he had coming in from abroad (mostly China and India) was requisitioned for the NHS and Armed Forces, so in the very best case scenario, there was stock, but it was being held centrally - in which case, there has been a massive failure of allocation and distribution.

And for the record - I don't know a single private provider who is expecting this stuff for free - we just want to be able to acquire it, so our staff can stay at work and not infect the people they support.

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:03 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Do we appear to have a shortage of ventilators? not according to the NHS and the shortage of PPE now seems to have been a bit of a red herring used to bash the government too.

It doesn't seem so bearing in mind as of a few days ago we had 2,400 spare capacity in critical care across the system, and 2,600 yesterday. The 'Nightingale' hospitals alone have been an astounding achievement - actually largely implemented by the army, who did most of the planning and project management.

All ignored by the left, who only a few weeks ago were praising China for building a similar hospital in similar time.

bren2k wrote:

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it - there was absolutely and without any shadow of a doubt, a shortage of PPE; my own supplier told me that what stock he had coming in from abroad (mostly China and India) was requisitioned for the NHS and Armed Forces, so in the very best case scenario, there was stock, but it was being held centrally - in which case, there has been a massive failure of allocation and distribution.

And for the record - I don't know a single private provider who is expecting this stuff for free - we just want to be able to acquire it, so our staff can stay at work and not infect the people they support.

That - again - doesn't necessarily point to a problem with supply, but distribution. A massive upsurge in demand by across the NHS and care systems (i.e., people like you) meant the existing network simply did not have the capacity or logistical capability to cope. That's why the army has been assisting with delivery and experts in high-demand rapid distribution such as Amazon Logistics have been brought in.

That said, I don't deny there have been some problem with supply. As I'm sure you're aware many billions of items were purchased by the public and other nations across the world in only a matter of weeks. Then, some of the main producers of PPE and other ICU equipment - China, India, S Korea, Japan etc were not only in lockdown, but most if not all blocked exports of these equipment in their own interests. China took over foreign-owned plants (3M in Shanghai being one) to block exports. Even Switzerland stopped exports. Google it, the information is out there. You ignore these facts.

Yes, the NHS should rightly receive priority over everything else. With respect - people going in to the NHS are sick and require immediate medical care, and in the current system those going into hospital are ALL urgently sick. In the care system of course there are the vulnerable and elderly, but not all are necessarily sick. Obviously - that's not to say the care system should be denied PPE so don't jump to that conclusion, but there have to be priorities and when there's a global emergency not everyone is going to have everything they need at every point in time.

Believe me, I'm not blase about the risks exposure to CV19 pose. People in my circle are dying, my family has been in near total isolation for nearly 5 weeks.

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:13 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Do we appear to have a shortage of ventilators? not according to the NHS and the shortage of PPE now seems to have been a bit of a red herring used to bash the government too.

I can assure you it was no red herring

You didnt reply to my reply to yourself on the other thread.

Jukesays wrote:

My relative is quite high up in a business where supplying PPE was around 5/10% of his business.
You'll be unsurprised to learn that its far greater than that currently.
I had a conversation with him late last week.
He is receiving dozens of calls and emails daily direct from Hospitals and council chiefs, nurses, doctors, care workers private and public asking him to source varying PPE.
His supply line is limited and the manufacturers are rationing PPE delivery to each supplier and spreading it about as best they can.
Only last Thursday a head of a department in the local council enquired about obtaining Body Bags, and if he couldnt could he try and look for alternate equipment that will do the job (meeting certain standards to avoid contamination issues).

Some may be alright, some aren't

I'm not making a statement about how this happened, whis to blame (if anyone) but it did and is still happening
I would give you more credit than being someone who uses Fake News as an argument

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:38 am  

Cronus wrote:

It doesn't seem so bearing in mind as of a few days ago we had 2,400 spare capacity in critical care across the system, and 2,600 yesterday. The 'Nightingale' hospitals alone have been an astounding achievement - actually largely implemented by the army, who did most of the planning and project management.

All ignored by the left, who only a few weeks ago were praising China for building a similar hospital in similar time.

That - again - doesn't point to a problem with supply, but distribution. A massive upsurge in demand by across the NHS and care systems (i.e., people like you) meant the existing network simply did not have the capacity or logistical capability to cope. That's why the army has been assisting with delivery and experts in high-demand rapid distribution such as Amazon Logistics have been brought in.

That said, I don't deny there have been some problem with supply. As I'm sure you're aware many billions of items were purchased by the public and other nations across the world in only a matter of weeks. Then, some of the main producers of PPE and other ICU equipment - China, India, S Korea, Japan etc were not only in lockdown, but most if not all blocked exports of these equipment in their own interests. Even Switzerland stopped exports. Google it, the information is out there. You ignore these facts.

Yes, the NHS should rightly receive priority over everything else. With respect - people going in to the NHS are sick and require immediate medical care, and in the current system those going into hospital are ALL urgently sick. In the care system of course there are the vulnerable and elderly, but not all are necessarily sick. Obviously - that's not to say the care system should be denied PPE so don't jump to that conclusion, but there have to be priorities and when there's a global emergency not everyone is going to have everything they need at every point in time.

Believe me, I'm not blase about the risks exposure to CV19 pose. People in my circle are dying, my family has been in near total isolation for nearly 5 weeks.

I'm not in opposition to any of what you say. I am however critical of the way that allocation and distribution was managed; for all the logistical expertise that was apparently brought to bear on this, there was still a failure to deliver what was promised to care settings - including the NHS. And that failure is even more remarkable if stock was sitting in centrally controlled warehouses, but not being delivered where it was needed.

I expect the supply to improve by next week - I am told that China has lifted export restrictions, so that will make a big difference; the issue now is profiteering and hoarding - some suppliers are charging 3-400% more for items of PPE, and some large providers are stockpiling. My own relatively modest order, which arrived on Friday, was lifted from the order of a 'fellow' provider, who had ordered 1 million of each item - I asked my supplier to take my order from it, and tell their CEO to contact me if he had an issue.

And for the record - this is nothing to do with left or right; I'm in a front line business, and trying to reflect the reality of what my 1800 key workers are facing. I would be equally critical of any failure, regardless what colour government was in charge.

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:07 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

I can assure you it was no red herring

You didnt reply to my reply to yourself on the other thread.

I'm not making a statement about how this happened, whis to blame (if anyone) but it did and is still happening
I would give you more credit than being someone who uses Fake News as an argument

I didn't reply because it anecdotal and cannot be verified - the government/NHS have said they have plenty of ventilators and capacity and I am not hearing anything the noise about PPE in the NHS that we were at the beginning in fact the opposite.

Re: coronavirus and sport ? : Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:13 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I didn't reply because it anecdotal and cannot be verified - the government/NHS have said they have plenty of ventilators and capacity and I am not hearing anything the noise about PPE in the NHS that we were at the beginning in fact the opposite.

Absolutely fine
I expect you to dismiss any other anecdotal evidence in support of any of your opinions moving forward.

I suspect you won't, as you haven't let itbstip you in the past.