Re: They Died too young : Fri May 01, 2015 12:39 pm  

It is irrelevant that there are better lesser known artists.
Hendrix and Cobain did the business and played to a wide audience when it mattered and when they were relevant.
To say Hendix was not the most technically gifted guitarist is puerile.
Who gives a poop, he was brilliantly different.
I loved him. Loved his voice too.

The Cobain sound was terrific.

Why criticise movers and shakers like these.
Thank goodness they were there to enrich our lives.

Re: They Died too young : Fri May 01, 2015 1:52 pm  

Cobain was a fraud, he craved superstardom and wanted to be praised and adored, he just didn't want the fans to know this, he would tell groupies he was a huge rock star and would order them to give him blowjobs, he was ecstatic with the outcome of Nevermind, he loved the fact that it was so polished and well produced so much that he jumped for joy in the studio hugging Vig and the other engineers while all along he treated the album with disdain saying it was similar to a Motley Crue album, don't believe the hype made by all the hero worshippers and do some research

Re: They Died too young : Fri May 01, 2015 2:57 pm  

The Mustard Tiger wrote:

I often think that if Hendrix had not died he would be nowhere near as legendary as he is, but thats just me

I think you're very wrong, personally. His legendary status is down to his approach to the guitar, his creativity and innovation. Nobody played guitar in the same way before he did, millions tried to afterwards.

Charlie Sheen wrote:

Hendrix is one of the few that I think would have gone on to achieve greater things had he lived. He wasn't the best guitarist, in fact, he was very sloppy and was aided by the fact he had hands like tarantulas to move around the neck. But, like Cobain he took popular rock music to a place he hadn't been before and laid the foundations that hard rock and metal would be built on. Now, if you're not a fan of them then that's fine, but to argue their importance is lunacy IMO.

How do you define best? In precision of technique, he probably wasn't, but a lot of technically precise guitarists produce sterile, sweep-picking up and down exotic scales and forget about actual music and melody. But as above, his creativity and innovation elevated him above his peers and guitarists since. IMO he is/was the best I've heard, but it's an unquantifiable opinion. Jimmy Page is another who often got scruffy with his playing, but he's another who was definitely one of the 'best'.

Furthermore on the technique point, Clapton was mentioned earlier and is a good example. He is now a much finer player technically, as he has improved and expanded throughout his career. However I think a hefty proportion of people will tend to say that his highpoint as a guitarist was the Beano album and Cream years. The passion and aggression in that period was much more appealing than the tasteful phrasing of later years.

N.B. I'm talking strictly rock/popular music here. It's impossible to really compare across vastly differing genres. I've heard people try and debate how rock guitarists compare to players like Segovia and Reinhardt. What's the point?

Re: They Died too young : Fri May 01, 2015 4:17 pm  

The Mustard Tiger wrote:

Cobain was a fraud, he craved superstardom and wanted to be praised and adored, he just didn't want the fans to know this, he would tell groupies he was a huge rock star and would order them to give him blowjobs, he was ecstatic with the outcome of Nevermind, he loved the fact that it was so polished and well produced so much that he jumped for joy in the studio hugging Vig and the other engineers while all along he treated the album with disdain saying it was similar to a Motley Crue album, don't believe the hype made by all the hero worshippers and do some research

All that may be true, but all that matters to me is what comes out of the speakers .... and I like what I hear.

Re: They Died too young : Fri May 01, 2015 8:41 pm  

carl_spackler wrote:

How do you define best? In precision of technique, he probably wasn't, but a lot of technically precise guitarists produce sterile, sweep-picking up and down exotic scales and forget about actual music and melody. But as above, his creativity and innovation elevated him above his peers and guitarists since. IMO he is/was the best I've heard, but it's an unquantifiable opinion. Jimmy Page is another who often got scruffy with his playing, but he's another who was definitely one of the 'best'.

Furthermore on the technique point, Clapton was mentioned earlier and is a good example. He is now a much finer player technically, as he has improved and expanded throughout his career. However I think a hefty proportion of people will tend to say that his highpoint as a guitarist was the Beano album and Cream years. The passion and aggression in that period was much more appealing than the tasteful phrasing of later years.

N.B. I'm talking strictly rock/popular music here. It's impossible to really compare across vastly differing genres. I've heard people try and debate how rock guitarists compare to players like Segovia and Reinhardt. What's the point?

I agree with you and that was my point. Joe Satriani, and Randy Rhodes ARE (were) better guitarists but they had no where near the cultural impact of Hendrix or Jimmy Page, and of course I would much rather listen to Hendrix, but if I was teaching a young guitarist I'd more likely tell them to listen and watch Satriani, but that's far from a criticism.

Re: They Died too young : Fri May 01, 2015 8:45 pm  

Charlie Sheen wrote:

I agree with you and that was my point. Joe Satriani, and Randy Rhodes ARE (were) better guitarists but they had no where near the cultural impact of Hendrix or Jimmy Page, and of course I would much rather listen to Hendrix, but if I was teaching a young guitarist I'd more likely tell them to listen and watch Satriani, but that's far from a criticism.

Frank Zappa over the lot of them followed closely by Duane Allman

Re: They Died too young : Fri May 01, 2015 8:55 pm  

Charlie Sheen wrote:

I agree with you and that was my point. Joe Satriani, and Randy Rhodes ARE (were) better guitarists but they had no where near the cultural impact of Hendrix or Jimmy Page, and of course I would much rather listen to Hendrix, but if I was teaching a young guitarist I'd more likely tell them to listen and watch Satriani, but that's far from a criticism.

Well, not meaning to be argumentative, but I actually kind of don't agree with you. I think they may be more polished in a technical sense with speed clarity of notes, but I still consider Hendrix and Page better guitarists. For me, the core purposes of an instrument are to produce music (i.e. writing), convey feeling/emotion, and to inspire others. Technical ability is still important, but not as important as those. And it's not like Hendrix and Page lacked technical ability. They could rip up the fretboard as well as most at times, they just occasionally hit the odd rough note when they let themselves go for it and got absorbed in their performance. Other facets of their playing (e.g. phrasing and string bending) were outstanding and incredibly expressive. With Hendrix in particular, it should also be noted that he was typically playing both lead and quite intricate rhythm at the same time by himself, that takes real skill.

Whilst I can appreciate the skill of someone like Satriani, for me it's mostly just a bit cold and boring and I don't really feel anything, which is a bit of a failure for music IMO. It's the difference between having perfect spelling and grammar, and being a great writer. Just how I see it, I know plenty will disagree.

Re: They Died too young : Fri May 01, 2015 9:31 pm  

carl_spackler wrote:

Well, not meaning to be argumentative, but I actually kind of don't agree with you. I think they may be more polished in a technical sense, but I still consider Hendrix and Page better guitarists. For me, the core purposes of an instrument are to produce music (i.e. writing), convey feeling/emotion, and to inspire others. Whilst I can appreciate the skill of someone like Satriani, for me it's mostly just a bit cold and boring and I don't really feel anything, which is a failure for music IMO.

It's the difference between having perfect spelling and grammar, and being a great writer. Just how I see it, I know plenty will disagree.

Agree with that 100%. I've a couple of friends who can play like Satriani or Vai - fast, slick and clean, but I find it all very soulless. No character, no passion, just speed. Being technically brilliant doesn't necessarily make you a musician to stir the soul.

While I can appreciate the skill involved in 'shredding', ultimately it all gets a bit dull. Steve Vai at Donington did my head in after about 10 minutes. Give me a little character, a few imperfections - players like Page, Hendrix, Gilmour, Slash, Townshend, Hammett, Blackmore and others.

In fact that's the starkest comparison - I'd sooner listen to Dave Gilmour than Joe Satriani, by some distance.

Re: They Died too young : Sat May 02, 2015 1:07 am  

Cronus wrote:

Agree with that 100%. I've a couple of friends who can play like Satriani or Vai - fast, slick and clean, but I find it all very soulless. No character, no passion, just speed. Being technically brilliant doesn't necessarily make you a musician to stir the soul.

While I can appreciate the skill involved in 'shredding', ultimately it all gets a bit dull. Steve Vai at Donington did my head in after about 10 minutes. Give me a little character, a few imperfections - players like Page, Hendrix, Gilmour, Slash, Townshend, Hammett, Blackmore and others.

In fact that's the starkest comparison - I'd sooner listen to Dave Gilmour than Joe Satriani, by some distance.

You're not wrong there mate ... I find Satriani quite comical, insomuch as he is a great guitar technician but has a lot less musical talent.
It must frustrate the pants off him.

Re: They Died too young : Sun May 03, 2015 6:31 pm  

The Mustard Tiger wrote:

Cobain was a fraud, he craved superstardom and wanted to be praised and adored, he just didn't want the fans to know this, he would tell groupies he was a huge rock star and would order them to give him blowjobs, he was ecstatic with the outcome of Nevermind, he loved the fact that it was so polished and well produced so much that he jumped for joy in the studio hugging Vig and the other engineers while all along he treated the album with disdain saying it was similar to a Motley Crue album, don't believe the hype made by all the hero worshippers and do some research

What a load of bollox, none of the above would have any relevance to the standard of Nirvana's music or Cobain's abilities and status as a writer musician and performer. I don't need to research. I just need my ears.