Re: Donald Trump : Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:04 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Bloody hell Sal, you're very quick to defend ANYTHING that happens on the Tory watch and yet, you back a party that has created fake twitter accounts to back up Tory lies - get a grip man
Although it wasn't in a hospital, you will no doubt have seen the Tory MP, who inadvertently left his mike switched on as he was "grooming" a regular punter into saying what was required.
The hospital haven't said that this story was faked, the denials have all come from "someone" who has a "friend" that works there.
The lies appear to have come from friends of the Tory's, desperate to rubbish the story - maybe someone like you ?
Also worth noting that, the family have been full of praise for the hospital staff and this doesnt reflect on them in any way.

Not at all - I am not suggesting for one minute the boy wasn't on the floor - the question is how did he get there and why did it enter any parent's head to take pictures and then sell them to the press? Surely any parent would want the best for their child is putting them on the floor when they have a viral condition beneficial to that child?

You only have to look at the health services in Scotland, Wales and N Ireland - non of which are run by the Tories to see funding is a huge issue - you could dump the whole GDP of the UK into the NHS and still wouldn't be enough - we come back to the externalities of decisions.

What else can the parents say - they could easily have put him on the trolley in the same room but they didn't so they are hardly in a position to criticise anyone.

Leeds is in the grip of a Norovirus outbreak which has caused issues at several schools - no doubt that had an impact on the A&E demand over the weekend. My understanding is the boy had to wait because there was a more needy child ahead of him - perhaps like any worried parent that decision caused an anger with the parent to make a decision they now regret?

Re: Donald Trump : Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:15 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

There has been a very definite change.

The Tory party, like Labour, has always been a broad church in terms of Thatcherite radicals v One Nation types, but they all shared certain principles. First a belief in defending British institutions: the rule of law, the courts, the civil service, Parliament. Second, a belief in individual freedom and prosperity and limiting the power of the Government: prioritising the small business owner, lower-middle income family with aspiration etc.

The Johnson cabal actively want to disrupt and reshape those institutions for the purposes of giving the Government more power at the expense of individuals - political appointments to the courts, replacing the permanent civil service with a right-wing think-tank led policy service, disrespecting Parliament. Also their approach to the business community is now shocking from a Conservative party. Their main priority is to make sure business stakeholders tow the line on their Brexit policy. They are complaining that 'business needs to listen to the Government' when it should be the other way round. Their interest in small businesses has become replaced by chasing high value business donors.

Also their economic strategy has moved away from fiscal conservatism and a limited state to a right-wing economic populism: willing to throw the cash around to purchase political advantage. It is really unbelievable that they are now taking Corbyn's position on saying they want to be freed from EU State Aid rules so that they can use taxpayers' money to subsidise struggling British businesses.

The Tories are simply trying to implement the result of the referendum - you either go against that vote which everyone except the Tories want to do or you honour it. Business also has to listen to the will of the people - if business had its own way there would be no minimum wage, no CT, no H&S regulations etc. Business wants to be in the EU because the last thing business wants is any restriction to the movement in capital goods and labour. Perhaps there needs to be a shift away from big business influence?

Austerity has been a huge issue - we see will the NHS - more investment is needed the Tories have to splash some cash or they will be out of power. There is a difference between investing in NHS/Schools/Police than re-nationalising everything.

Re: Donald Trump : Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:42 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Business also has to listen to the will of the people - if business had its own way there would be no minimum wage, no CT, no H&S regulations etc. Business wants to be in the EU because the last thing business wants is any restriction to the movement in capital goods and labour. Perhaps there needs to be a shift away from big business influence?

This is the type of thing the Bennite wing of the Labour party was arguing in the late 70s/early 80s when they wanted withdrawal from the EEC, and its been Jeremy Corbyn's position for most of his political career, until he became leader and underwent a reluctant conversion to being pro-EU.

Now a lot of Conservatives are shifting to this position because it's where Brexit and the realignment of politics is taking them, but I expect it is uncomfortable for them because it goes against their instincts.

Of course business doesn't want restriction to movement in capital, goods and labour, because those add costs to doing business. Costs end up being passed on somewhere, either higher prices to consumers, lost output by being less competitive when selling abroad or businesses going bust which we all pay for in terms of lost jobs.

It's a slippery slope when you start going down the line of 'business has to listen to the will of the people'. The people like to have....free stuff. They want an NHS free at the point of delivery and they want to have investment in schools and they want to have subsidised transport and subsidised social care but they don't like the idea of government taking money off them in tax or taking the inheritance away from their children. The populist view is often that 'business' isn't paying its taxes so we can slam wealth creators with more taxes and get everything paid for.

The challenge for the Conservatives, who clearly recognise the danger of the above, is their new electoral constituency is going to be asking for this and also is going to be expecting state support (more expense to the taxpayer) if industries in the north/midlands struggle after Brexit. The Conservative government will have to face a hard choice: either tell them no, like Thatcher did, let them go to the wall and suffer the electoral consequences in those regions (which could be problematic if they are relying on those seats); or give them what they want and then find a way of paying for it: either higher taxes for individuals, higher taxes for businesses or increased borrowing. All of which will be difficult for Conservatives to stomach.

Re: Donald Trump : Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:14 pm  

He ended up on the floor because he was removed from his bed for another patient or are you one of those who despite the evidence think it is staged. I would point out that the hospital confirmed it was correct and not fictitious unlike the fake post. The same can also be said about the false report regarding an aide being assaulted by a labour supporter. It is strange how both these appeared when they did, you could say that the Conservatives must have an online fairy godmother.

Re: Donald Trump : Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:22 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

You mean the married Keith Hampson that was caught in a gay strip joint in Soho manhandling the merchandise - he deserved drumming out of the party.

Jesus Christ do you modern Tories ever do anything but distract with bullshit rather than actually focus on the real issues?

Re: Donald Trump : Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:20 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Not at all - I am not suggesting for one minute the boy wasn't on the floor - the question is how did he get there and why did it enter any parent's head to take pictures and then sell them to the press? Surely any parent would want the best for their child is putting them on the floor when they have a viral condition beneficial to that child?

You only have to look at the health services in Scotland, Wales and N Ireland - non of which are run by the Tories to see funding is a huge issue - you could dump the whole GDP of the UK into the NHS and still wouldn't be enough - we come back to the externalities of decisions.

What else can the parents say - they could easily have put him on the trolley in the same room but they didn't so they are hardly in a position to criticise anyone.

Leeds is in the grip of a Norovirus outbreak which has caused issues at several schools - no doubt that had an impact on the A&E demand over the weekend. My understanding is the boy had to wait because there was a more needy child ahead of him - perhaps like any worried parent that decision caused an anger with the parent to make a decision they now regret?

Do you accept that you are just regurgitating blatant lies, peddled by Tory sympathisers and are you going to apologise for doing so.
Both the hospital and the boy's family have said that lack of a bed was accurate and whilst there were chairs available, the rest of your post is just wrong, on multiple levels.
It's a bloody disgrace that ANY party can believe that they have to rubbish the truth in order to further their desire for power and their actions on this single small issue tell you why voting Tory can never be right.
Lying, self serving T***s

Re: Donald Trump : Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:50 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Do you accept that you are just regurgitating blatant lies, peddled by Tory sympathisers and are you going to apologise for doing so.
Both the hospital and the boy's family have said that lack of a bed was accurate and whilst there were chairs available, the rest of your post is just wrong, on multiple levels.
It's a bloody disgrace that ANY party can believe that they have to rubbish the truth in order to further their desire for power and their actions on this single small issue tell you why voting Tory can never be right.
Lying, self serving T***s

What I am saying is this - yes the Tories have lied - the punch thing was pretty desperate - but so have Labour something you want to gloss over and it is a very good reason not to vote Labour. Do you honestly think Labour care about the average working person? do they f**k.

The Tories are the best of a very bad job - I don't want a Marxist playing games with our economy just to see if it might work. Even Ashworth yesterday said Corbyn can't carry his party and is deeply unpopular in the country - another Labour big wig lying to cover himself.

You appear to have a very myopic view when it comes to the issues in Labour you simply turn a blind eye.

All the parties have rubbished the truth - Corbyn on selling off the NHS, the Tories on Brexit and the NI border - its the nature of politics, its a tragedy when you are voting for the lesser of two evils.

Re: Donald Trump : Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:08 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

What I am saying is this - yes the Tories have lied - the punch thing was pretty desperate - but so have Labour something you want to gloss over and it is a very good reason not to vote Labour. Do you honestly think Labour care about the average working person? do they f**k.

The Tories are the best of a very bad job - I don't want a Marxist playing games with our economy just to see if it might work. Even Ashworth yesterday said Corbyn can't carry his party and is deeply unpopular in the country - another Labour big wig lying to cover himself.

You appear to have a very myopic view when it comes to the issues in Labour you simply turn a blind eye.

All the parties have rubbished the truth - Corbyn on selling off the NHS, the Tories on Brexit and the NI border - its the nature of politics, its a tragedy when you are voting for the lesser of two evils.

You're at it again, defending the indefensible.
To have a 4 year old boy on the floor in Casualty - because there aren't any available beds - as you probably know, there WAS a bed, but a more urgent case then deprived him of one.
That in itself is bad enough but, to then have a Tory sympathiser "friend" a nurse on Facebook and then use that "friend" as a reference to try and discredit the story, which was then splattered accross the Tory media is just bloody wrong and THIS is the world that YOU are advocating.

How can ANYONE think this is ok ??

And YOU personally, repeated the lies on here. Nobody else did but, YOU though it was fine, sorry but, its not.
Not now, not ever and we're not even discussing the PM's actions to this.

If he had any balls, he would have gone straight up to Leeds himself but, we know that he is severely lacking in bottle and any moral compass, unless there's a few quid in it for himself or his friends.

As I said lying T***s

Re: Donald Trump : Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:12 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

You're at it again, defending the indefensible.
To have a 4 year old boy on the floor in Casualty - because there aren't any available beds - as you probably know, there WAS a bed, but a more urgent case then deprived him of one.
That in itself is bad enough but, to then have a Tory sympathiser "friend" a nurse on Facebook and then use that "friend" as a reference to try and discredit the story, which was then splattered accross the Tory media is just bloody wrong and THIS is the world that YOU are advocating.

How can ANYONE think this is ok ??

And YOU personally, repeated the lies on here. Nobody else did but, YOU though it was fine, sorry but, its not.
Not now, not ever and we're not even discussing the PM's actions to this.

If he had any balls, he would have gone straight up to Leeds himself but, we know that he is severely lacking in bottle and any moral compass, unless there's a few quid in it for himself or his friends.

As I said lying T***s

I am not defending anything - to expect any hospital to have sufficient beds for any eventuality is ludicrous. Even your twisted view on life must accept that. Everyone knows we need to invest more in the NHS they question is how much?

Johnson did exactly the right in sending the minister in charge to do otherwise would simply be undermining the position of the minister - again even your twisted view on reality can see that to be the right thing to do.

I will still argue that boy should never have been put on the floor - there were other options. That was done for effect as was sending a picture to not one but two media outlets - you see that as OK - I don't I think its a s**t trick end of.

As I repeat your myopia towards the Tories does you no favours you have a very angry/twisted view on things - its quite disturbing - you need help.

Re: Donald Trump : Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:29 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I am not defending anything - to expect any hospital to have sufficient beds for any eventuality is ludicrous. Even your twisted view on life must accept that. Everyone knows we need to invest more in the NHS they question is how much?

Johnson did exactly the right in sending the minister in charge to do otherwise would simply be undermining the position of the minister - again even your twisted view on reality can see that to be the right thing to do.

I will still argue that boy should never have been put on the floor - there were other options. That was done for effect as was sending a picture to not one but two media outlets - you see that as OK - I don't I think its a s**t trick end of.

As I repeat your myopia towards the Tories does you no favours you have a very angry/twisted view on things - its quite disturbing - you need help.

There are two issues here.
Firstly, a shortage of hospital beds, resulting in a 4 year old boy, not having a bed and being pictured on the floor in a hospital corridor and this on it's own isn't great.
However, we then have Tory sympathisers (including yourself) trying desperately to portray this as not having happened and being a "publicity stunt", fake information form "a friend of a nurse" etc, utterly fabricated in order to DELIBERATELY pour doubt on the whole issue and the FAKS story of someone who "knows the staff" saying that it never happened.

I can live with the insufficient funding and the fact that there isn't a bed for everyone.
What I cant abide, is the ABSOLUTE LIES that have been banded about in order to cover up the mess, which is largely due to insufficient funding and as I stated, YOU were the only person on here to regurgitate the mis information, that was put out to try and take the heat off the Tory lies.

You are damn right that I'm angry and I make no apology for that - politics is twisted enough without the new gutter tactics of the current ruling party and the sooner that we have just a hint of honesty from those who should be setting an example to the masses, I'm sure that my level of anger will reduce.

As for you, if you cannot or will not see the wrongdoing with this particular issue than I fear that you are actually beyond help but you could try this number 0207 2703000 - ask for Boris or Cummings, I'm sure that you'll get a sympathetic ear.