Re: Brexit Anyone? : Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:06 pm  

Roy Haggerty wrote:

No, not funny. Humiliating. It was like having a petulant child "you're not laughing now" in a room full of adults. Like it or not, Farage is now seen as representative of the majority of Britons. That's shameful.

Isn't that what we're seeing with the EU members leaders in their response to us leaving , but with a full room of petulance ?

The thing about Nigel though is that unlike 99% of politicians , he does actually answer a question when asked , I cannot help but like him for that

Perhaps that's what was t the root of my vote , I just have had enough of politicians bull**** both here and from the EU

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:13 pm  

Wire Yed wrote:

Question to all Remainer's

1. Do you genuinely believe the EU is democratic?

If yes, how so?

If no, why the hell do you support it?

All the member states are. For now.

And tbf, while the EU systems are imperfect, the way the UK's upper house and head of state are selected, isn't democratic. And I still support the uk, if not necessarily those institutions.

Basically, given the choice between something imperfect and something ill-defined and barely thought through (or clearly defined, but by Mr Farage), I'll accept imperfection.

And democracy, is a means for obtaining good government or decision making, at least as much as it is an end in itself. I'd take a benevolent dictatorship over democratically elected 'evil' every time. Possibly over democratically elected incompetence - trite, I know, but I wouldn't be happy if Rovers fans selected the team by popular acclaim each week. Even this year.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:30 pm  

I'm not bringing the UK into it as a comparison...I'm asking folks if they think the EU is a democracy not if it is more democratic than the UK systems in place.

WHY have two layers of nonsense the EU non democracy AND the UK non democracy?

We have kicked one to touch ... NOW is the time to work on our system.

Get rid of the House of Lords.
Get rid of the Queen or the easier solution when she pops her clogs end it all and become a Republic.
Proportional Representation to be brought in and do away with first past the post.

Personally although i don't support it as vociferously is give more power to the counties in a similar way the USA does to states.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:33 pm  

Wire Yed wrote:

Question to all Remainer's

1. Do you genuinely believe the EU is democratic?

If yes, how so?

If no, why the hell do you support it?

A question specifically for you.

I understand what you were voting against, I think - what you regard as an undemocratic institution.

What, more specifically, were you voting for? What, for you, would be the desirable outcomes of Brexit?

Or was it purely the principle of democracy, irrespective of the practical consequences?

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:51 pm  

"was it purely the principle of democracy, irrespective of the practical consequences?"

Yes, unfortunately, this decision pained me, it genuinely was gut wretching and not easy...but i cant pee on the memory of so many people who have died for this, I'd rather pass on a poor democracy as a legacy than a rich dictatorship.

I apologise to all those this has had an effect on, but democracy has always and will always be sacrosanct to me.

If i had a child i would lay down my life for that child to live a free life of self determination.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:51 pm  

Wire Yed wrote:

I'm not bringing the UK into it as a comparison...I'm asking folks if they think the EU is a democracy not if it is more democratic than the UK systems in place.

WHY have two layers of nonsense the EU non democracy AND the UK non democracy?

Why have kicked one to touch ... NOW is the time to work on our system.

Get rid of the House of Lords.
Get rid of the Queen or the easier solution when she pops her clogs end it all and become a Republic.
Proportional Representation to be brought in and do away with first past the post.

Personally although i don't support it as vociferously is give more power to the counties in a similar way the USA does to states.

You may not want to use the UK as a comparator, but I don't think it is an unreasonable way for people to illustrate their position.

Why have the EU? As a body for dealing with issues across the continent. Just as local, regional and national bodies do at different levels, right up to the UN.

Get rid of the House of Lords - I agree. But let's have an alternative - a lottery like we use for jury service, or a second elected chamber. As an alternative to first past the post, prop rep is a workable and clearly defined option.
Part of the reason the leave option was so unattractive to me was that no coherent alternative was presented. Or multiple mutually incompatible ones, depending on how you want to count it.
The EU and our political system generally have flaws. Big ones. But at least they are things. The Leave prospectus isn't even that. Unless it is Farage's version, which is a thing, just a rather ugly one IMO.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:04 pm  

Wire Yed wrote:

"was it purely the principle of democracy, irrespective of the practical consequences?"

Yes, unfortunately, this decision pained me, it genuinely was gut wretching and not easy...but i cant pee on the memory of so many people who have died for this, I'd rather pass on a poor democracy as a legacy than a rich dictatorship.

I apologise to all those this has had an effect on, but democracy has always and will always be sacrosanct to me.

If i had a child i would lay down my life for that child to live a free life of self determination.

I assume we're now talking in generalities about standing up to something really bad and dictatorial?

If the EU was that bad and our democracy so undermined, we wouldn't have been able to have the referendum in the first place, and have had the result received by our neighbours with a phlegmatic 'p*** off then'.

I do respect your decision and reasoning, btw, although I disagree with you.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:24 pm  

GUBRATS wrote:

The thing about Nigel though is that unlike 99% of politicians , he does actually answer a question when asked , I cannot help but like him for that

Perhaps that's what was t the root of my vote , I just have had enough of politicians bull**** both here and from the EU

Yes, Nigel is a straight talking, honest politician, who never spins his own brand of bull**** to get you to believe what he wants you to believe...

But you know I'm going to have to ask about that pesky £350 million quid a week again don't you?

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:37 pm  

bren2k wrote:

Yes, Nigel is a straight talking, honest politician, who never spins his own brand of bull**** to get you to believe what he wants you to believe...

But you know I'm going to have to ask about that pesky £350 million quid a week again don't you?

I never considered it as that , and would have preferred them to have been more honest on the subject , £180 million perhaps

But that was only 1 part of several issues for me

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:57 pm  

Wire Yed wrote:

"was it purely the principle of democracy, irrespective of the practical consequences?"

Yes, unfortunately, this decision pained me, it genuinely was gut wretching and not easy...but i cant pee on the memory of so many people who have died for this, I'd rather pass on a poor democracy as a legacy than a rich dictatorship.

I apologise to all those this has had an effect on, but democracy has always and will always be sacrosanct to me.

If i had a child i would lay down my life for that child to live a free life of self determination.

The EU has never had any pretense of being democratic, because it doesn't need to be, at least not fully. Many aspects of our lives are undemocratic. Our schools and police force are undemocratic, we don't get to vote on who teaches our kids or patrols our streets but nobody ever raises the issue of democracy when it comes to those things, and anyone doing so would probably be laughed at. The only difference with the EU is that they are perceived to be 'outsiders' and some faraway body rather than local people making the decisions. But there is no reason for the 'undemocratic' parts of the EU to be democratic, especially as most people never bothered to vote or pay any attention to the democratic part (the EU parliament). Saying that you're against the EU because of a lack of democracy isn't much more sensible than saying you're against hospitals or schools or your local gym.