Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:14 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

On the face it the drugs he was taking to remain a public figure and maintain all the millions he was earning had an affect - roid-rage, perhaps if he had relied on natural talent she might still be alive?

In Jamaica?

Who knows all superstition - the truth is you have no more idea than I do?

I'm afraid that I do, since I actually report LGBT issues on occasion.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:20 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

Of course not, you blithering idiot, but to suggest that an increase in sexual crimes means that black people would have been better off under apartheid is just bonkers. What needs to happen is that black people continue to have equal rights AND that instances of rape are reduced. There was probably a lot less unemployment amongst black people when white people were allowed to keep slaves. Maybe we should have left well alone, eh?

And if rape is increasing, it's likely to be increasing for all women. Of course, if there are more black women there will be more black victims, but that's really not the point.

Actually, we have no idea whether there is "an increase in sexual crimes" or simply an increase in the reporting of sexual crimes or an increase in the interest of the country's mainstream media in sexual crimes (particularly in the black communities) – etc.

There are real issues with rape – including 'corrective rape'

There is still massive poverty too – not helped by South African governments since Mandela following neo-liberal economic approaches, which do absolutely nothing to dent poverty. But the idea that somehow apartheid was somehow an era to look back at with nostalgic longing does rather beggar belief.

[DaveO]

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:42 pm  

Mintball wrote: It is very beautiful – but what I saw most of was also quite bonkers. The Afrikaners are a right snotty lot in my experience – and stuck decades in the past. I would concur with that based on my experience on the rugby tour. Reminded me of a trip to Madrid and Spain in the eighties when I saw evidence of a fondness for the days under Franco! We also visited this: http://www.voortrekkermon.org.za/ which is a monument to the Great Trek the Afrikaners made away from the southern end of SA in order to avoid (amongst other things) the abolition of slavery imposed by the British. We played a team from an Afrikan's school in Pretoria and the lads went and stayed with the families. The attitude of the school was one of assumed superiority. That is the only way I can describe it. The home visits opened a few eyes as well. Barred electric gates, guard dogs, barred windows etc. Compared to the first game played v a team from Soweto the contrast could not have been greater in atmosphere and attitude. The team also played games around Cape Town where the Afrikaner influence is much less and that was far better. Still differences in privilege in terms of the schools visited and hard to tell what underlying attitudes were compared to the more or less outright living in the past up north but still much better.

Mintball wrote: It is very beautiful – but what I saw most of was also quite bonkers. The Afrikaners are a right snotty lot in my experience – and stuck decades in the past. I would concur with that based on my experience on the rugby tour. Reminded me of a trip to Madrid and Spain in the eighties when I saw evidence of a fondness for the days under Franco! We also visited this: http://www.voortrekkermon.org.za/ which is a monument to the Great Trek the Afrikaners made away from the southern end of SA in order to avoid (amongst other things) the abolition of slavery imposed by the British. We played a team from an Afrikan's school in Pretoria and the lads went and stayed with the families. The attitude of the school was one of assumed superiority. That is the only way I can describe it. The home visits opened a few eyes as well. Barred electric gates, guard dogs, barred windows etc. Compared to the first game played v a team from Soweto the contrast could not have been greater in atmosphere and attitude. The team also played games around Cape Town where the Afrikaner influence is much less and that was far better. Still differences in privilege in terms of the schools visited and hard to tell what underlying attitudes were compared to the more or less outright living in the past up north but still much better.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:17 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

As your society descends culturally the higher values of that society decrease - the way we treat each other our respect for other citizens reduces. I never suggested it had anything to do with democracy - it is about the culture of a country. Is black on black violence more prevalent now than it was under whites?

It certainly sounded like you were saying that having the vote and equal rights were responsible for poverty and high crime rates.
If you're not saying that ... then are you blaming crime rates on Mandela? ... or are you saying that it was so much better under apartheid that they should have kept it?

To keep it simple for me ... was getting rid of apartheid and gaining equal rights a good thing or a bad thig?

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:17 pm  

DaveO wrote:

<snip>

On my first visit, I got taken to the local bowling club (crown green), where my mother in law (or common-law mother-in-law, to use The Other Half's formula) played. She's a down-to-Earth Yorkshire lass. But of course, she's also white, so was accepted.

Anyway, she wanted to show off her son to her bowling chums.

It was the most extraordinary step back in time. We couldn't go in the main bar, so sat in an odd and nearly deserted other room. And there. we met women in (I guess) their late sixties, who were dressed in the floral prints 1939 in Malaya (I'm thinking Tenko here), with the lipstick to match.

A fan spun overhead and a large black woman worked quietly in kitchen beyond.

The situation reached utterly surreal levels when one of the women started talking about her son, who had died in a car crash, and whose picture, in his coffin, she carried. Fortunately, common-law father-in-law decided that was enough and we escaped before she could share the picture with us.

If you haven't read those two Tom Sharpe books, BTW, I'd heartily recommend them – very, very funny, in a very, very dark way.

Generally: I would never seek to suggest that there are not problems in that country – but goodness, what country doesn't have them?

Let's also be quite clear – I don't know all the reasons for those problems and some of them may well be connected with cultural issues. But 'culture' has, over history, been changed and is changeable. If it wasn't, we'd all still be living in caves.

And I'd suggest that poverty and lack of opportunity are absolutely crucial here. We know that these things increase crime. We know they increase birthrate. We know they increase all manner of things. This is why meaningful reduction of inequality should be seen as being in the interest of everyone.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:18 pm  

Mintball wrote:

It was the most extraordinary step back in time. We couldn't go in the main bar, so sat in an odd and nearly deserted other room. And there. we met women in (I guess) their late sixties, who were dressed in the floral prints 1939 in Malaya (I'm thinking Tenko here), with the lipstick to match.

You don't have to got that far to experience that, there are still clubs in Yorkshire and North East England where that happens too.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:20 pm  

Big Graeme wrote:

You don't have to got that far to experience that, there are still clubs in Yorkshire and North East England where that happens too.

I haven't seen it to that extent, but hey - I'm not disputing it.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:04 am  

At least Cameron can keep out of the limelight over here for a few days when he attends Chavez's funeral. He will be going won't he?

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:22 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

At least Cameron can keep out of the limelight over here for a few days when he attends Chavez's funeral. He will be going won't he?

I wish Cameron would go and not come back. Better still he should get in the coffin with Chavez ( Osbourne too ! ) as that'll be good news but then on the other hand I'd feel sorry for Chavez having to share a coffin with Cameron and Osborne.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:17 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

It certainly sounded like you were saying that having the vote and equal rights were responsible for poverty and high crime rates.
If you're not saying that ... then are you blaming crime rates on Mandela? ... or are you saying that it was so much better under apartheid that they should have kept it?

To keep it simple for me ... was getting rid of apartheid and gaining equal rights a good thing or a bad thig?

In theory a good thing - in practise only those who live there can answer, which is why I ask the question?

It is interesting all those lefties on here who crave greater state control and suggest examples of where it benefits everyone yet cry wolf when increased democracy is challenged - hypocritical or what?