Re: Donald Trump : Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:42 pm  

bren2k wrote:

It's nowhere near a win; you call for due process and the rule of law in one breath, then brush all that aside when it comes to the Salisbury case - and absolutely refuse to acknowledge the hypocrisy of the Tory party - rattling sabres about Putin on the one hand, but balls deep into Russian money on the other.

You're all over the place today - go have a lie down.

Could you please tell me the difference between Russian money, Saudi Arabian money , also money coming in from Cayman Islands and other offshore sources. Potentially all these sources may have a question mark over them. Jezza and his mates hate the city with a passion, conveniently overlooking the fact the massive tax input that comes from it. The French and Germans make no secret of the fact they want some of that business. I am certain that they wouldn’t be looking to closely at money sources .

Re: Donald Trump : Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:41 pm  

bren2k wrote:

It's nowhere near a win; you call for due process and the rule of law in one breath, then brush all that aside when it comes to the Salisbury case - and absolutely refuse to acknowledge the hypocrisy of the Tory party - rattling sabres about Putin on the one hand, but balls deep into Russian money on the other.

You're all over the place today - go have a lie down.

What on earth are you whittering about?

Tell me, what about the Salisbury investigation has failed in terms of due process and rule of law? Answer: nothing. Unless you believe the tripe pouring out of Moscow, of course. And the dithering Comrade Cob for that matter. The police investigation is ongoing and the OPCW are following their procedures. In no way, shape or form have I or anyone brushed rule of law aside - because that it exactly what is happening.

Blinkered leftist Corbynites simply cannot see it and follow their leader by supporting any anti-UK/Tory sentiment. You're blurting out a lot of empty words and casting accusations with zero grounding in reality. What you're saying simply isn't true.

A Tory party 'balls deep' in Russian money wouldn't have tabled the Magnitsky amendment or voted it in unanimously and be governing over ongoing investigations.

Re: Donald Trump : Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:13 pm  

Tigertot. You are breath of fresh air in this thread. Someone who is actually educated enough to “get it”

Regards

King James

Re: Donald Trump : Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:30 pm  

tigertot wrote:

Exactly. Construction is my profession so I have a particular interest. I read some initial findings on Grenfell inquiry this week which are damning of the whole construction industry & process, & are spot on in my view. This is nearly a year after the tragedy. The Salisbury tragedy should be afforded the same level of scrutiny before jumping to convenient conclusions.

What makes you think they don't have firm evidence already?

Re: Donald Trump : Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:38 pm  

Cronus wrote:

What on earth are you whittering about?

Tell me, what about the Salisbury investigation has failed in terms of due process and rule of law? Answer: nothing. Unless you believe the tripe pouring out of Moscow, of course. And the dithering Comrade Cob for that matter. The police investigation is ongoing and the OPCW are following their procedures. In no way, shape or form have I or anyone brushed rule of law aside - because that it exactly what is happening.

Blinkered leftist Corbynites simply cannot see it and follow their leader by supporting any anti-UK/Tory sentiment. You're blurting out a lot of empty words and casting accusations with zero grounding in reality. What you're saying simply isn't true.

A Tory party 'balls deep' in Russian money wouldn't have tabled the Magnitsky amendment or voted it in unanimously and be governing over ongoing investigations.

Cronus logic. Because the govement says it’s true without offering evidence it must be true. Just like there were weapons of mass destruction. Tip for you Cronus old bean, don’t believe everything the bbc, mail and the sun tell you.

Regards

King James

Re: Donald Trump : Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:55 pm  

Lebron James wrote:

Cronus logic. Because the govement says it’s true without offering evidence it must be true. Just like there were weapons of mass destruction. Tip for you Cronus old bean, don’t believe everything the bbc, mail and the sun tell you.

Regards

King James

Lebron logic. Because you haven't personally been handed the evidence it must be a conspiracy. Let's just ignore the facts staring you in the face and the unequivocal support from the EU and USA, who have seen the evidence and made their own judgements and taken the significant step of confronting Russia. Let's ignore the history of the victim and which nation developed this family of nerve agent, and the track record of assassinations by Russia. Let's ignore the fact some of the best scientists in this field have analysed samples of the substance. Let's just ignore everything.

For some reason you think everything should be disclosed on a rolling basis in this case. Why is that? Normally evidence disclosure waits for trial or inquest outcomes, not to satisfy RLFannys Corbynites.

Blinkered Corbynite leftists: it can't be true if the UK says it is. Keep that red flag flying, eh comrade?

Lebron, old bean, take the tin foil hat off. You're looking rather silly.

Re: Donald Trump : Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:45 am  

Cronus wrote:

What makes you think they don't have firm evidence already?

They don't even know, yet, how the stuff was administered, so how the hell they know who did it is beyond belief. I think we may well never know for certain. Not for a generation at least.

What I know or think from what I have heard & read;
Novichok was developed in the former USSR (not Russia as such) in the 70s. It has never been used by USSR/Russia.
Others may have synthesised it & developed it further. Porton Down wouldn't have been able to identify it so quickly otherwise. It can apparently be relatively easily synthesised in a standard laboratory, so the assertion it must be a nation state is cobblers.
I don't think Putin is involved (nor do any of the academic or military experts I have heard) though I think the most likely explanation is that agents allied to Putin who can act with impunity did carry it out or arranged it.
I don't think it is beyond imagination that establishment/right wing forces within this country, not directly linked to Government, saw it as a Falklands moment for an unpopular & clueless PM, or an opportunity to return to a cold war.

Re: Donald Trump : Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:35 pm  

Backwoodsman wrote:

Could you please tell me the difference between Russian money, Saudi Arabian money , also money coming in from Cayman Islands and other offshore sources. Potentially all these sources may have a question mark over them.

Very little - and Labour have been very clear about their stance on all three, so you'll feel very comfortable as a converted Corbynite. Welcome aboard comrade!

Re: Donald Trump : Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:13 pm  

tigertot wrote:

They don't even know, yet, how the stuff was administered, so how the hell they know who did it is beyond belief. I think we may well never know for certain. Not for a generation at least.

Just because we haven't been told, doesn't mean they don't know, or have some idea. As it happens you're probably correct that they don't know just yet. Administering it is a major challenge in itself, it would need a very specialist container and the precursors would possibly need to be mixed beforehand, requiring further specialist equipment and expert handling. The risks to the handler are also considerable, especially at the point of administering the agent. So how did they transport it, prepare it and administer it? Certainly not with stuff you can get at B&Q and not a job for amateurs.

What I know or think from what I have heard & read;
Novichok was developed in the former USSR (not Russia as such) in the 70s. It has never been used by USSR/Russia.
Others may have synthesised it & developed it further. Porton Down wouldn't have been able to identify it so quickly otherwise. It can apparently be relatively easily synthesised in a standard laboratory, so the assertion it must be a nation state is cobblers.
I don't think Putin is involved (nor do any of the academic or military experts I have heard) though I think the most likely explanation is that agents allied to Putin who can act with impunity did carry it out or arranged it.

They were created in Shikhany, Russia according to Vil Mirzayanov, one of the original creators - although other sites have been involved in their production and the production of precursors.

Yes, Iranian scientists - in conjunction with the OPCW - synthesised 5 Novichok agents on a micro-scale a few years ago. They already knew the structures from Mirzayanov, which would allow scientists to identify mass, IR/UV properties, nuclear magnetic resonance and other properties. In other words: Porton Down don't need a pre-existing physical sample to identify it. By taking fluid from the victim's spinal cords, together with skin and any other samples, and isolating the acetylcholinesterase enzyme to which the nerve agent bonds, they can identify the structure of the agent.

It's certainly not the case that any bedroom scientist can create Novichok. It would need an expert scientist with the correct specialist equipment, and the dangers would be enormous - the precursors required to mix and produce Novichok are in themselves mostly lethal (although less so) and illegal. Indeed, Andrei Zheleznyakov, another one of the original scientists, died after a miniscule amount leaked from a rubber tube.

So you don't think Putin is involved? He's the head of the Russian State with his fingers in every pie. It's highly unlikely anyone would launch an attack with such wide-reaching repercussions without his knowledge and blessing. For every pundit you've heard saying it isn't him, there are 20 saying it definitely is. It's also worth considering that beyond the political fall-out, the UN Chemical Weapons Convention has probably been breached.

The evidence is overwhelming. The target is an ex-Soviet paratrooper and GRU officer, convicted of spying for MI6 and sentenced to 13 years in Russia, later released as part of a spy swap, living in Salisbury and continuing to work with MI6. Many of his family have died in suspicious circumstances since he left Russia. The only nation to have produced a Novichok stockpile is Russia. Furthermore the Russian State has a track record of assassinating traitors - Litvinenko being the most famous case, which was also traced directly back to Moscow.

They're sending a number of messages: that traitors to the Motherland can expect a VERY nasty end regardless of 'deals', that Russia isn't scared of showing aggression and treading on Western toes, that they think Brexit UK is isolated and unlikely to receive much support (wrong), that they aren't to be messed with and are willing to use radioactive substances and illegal chemical weapons on foreign soil. A bullet or a knife or poison would be easier but wouldn't achieve all these aims.

I don't think it is beyond imagination that establishment/right wing forces within this country, not directly linked to Government, saw it as a Falklands moment for an unpopular & clueless PM, or an opportunity to return to a cold war.

Yes, it is. It's such an utterly ludicrous suggestion you get today's special picture.

Re: Donald Trump : Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:51 am  

Cronus wrote:

Yes, it is. It's such an utterly ludicrous suggestion you get today's special picture.

Then illegal mass surveillance of the population by police; then illegal torture of prisoners; then illegal blacklisting of trades union members; then illegally providing personal information by such organisations to police on people who have committed no crimes; then illegal hacking of campaigners & journalists accounts by a secretive Scotland Yard unit; then illegal collaboration between security forces & terrorist organisations to have individuals murdered in Northern Ireland; then undercover police officers who encouraged illegal acts; then undercover police who infiltrated environmental groups & sired children with activists; the illegal murder & torture of unarmed Iraqis etc; are all undertaken with the full knowledge & approval of the Government. But then you knew all this anyway.