Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:17 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I am the one taking all the risk, I put all the money in - its my family's house on the line - so yes its pretty important that the tail doesn't wag the dog.

If the union is so good at running businesses let them get on with it - we all know what the result would be if they applied their own demands to their own business - it wouldn't last two minutes but they don't and therein lies the crux of the matter.

That's not what I meant
Your position on Power - You either have the upper hand or you don't - That's all well and good when you come from a position of power
Unfortunately the people with the power tend to hold the Power in 95% of their dealings day to day

Shoe on the other foot and it's a whole different Ball game

I have found Unions to be useless - I don't particularly care for them - However if anyone thinks that ALL employers would treat workers fairly and not exercise their power over the more vulnerable if they could to maximise profits is living in dream land.
Andy maybe that's where unions and the EU do serve a purpose however outdated and useless you want to portray them

I hear every day people slagging Police/Courts & Judges/EU etc.
But it's only in times of crisis that we understand/rely on them

I am trying to be optimistic in my thinking that this crisis will change peoples priorities, show compassion when required, Understand that not everyone has the same Priorities (i.e. Money) in life, that people will understand that there does need to be and there is a place in our country for a "Safety Net" in the form of properly funded Social care (Really good segment on Jon Oliver Monday about American Health care and the state they are in and how it needs to change when all this is over).
My gut feeling is we won't - The ones who want to care about themselves will carry on doing so under some other Banner to explain their actions & politics. Whilst the vulnerable will continue to be classed as Lazy, Communists, Lefties, hippies or any other Name by them to hide their prejudices & whilst there is some of those issues that blight that cause/stance - It's no more IMO and probably less than the amount of Privileged people out there exploiting others for their own Benefit/profits.

I get it that someone will rip my post to pieces - IR80 will tell me that I have "Politics of Envy" etc. and that's fine. Crack on.
I'm personally doing fine in my life, I hope everyone else is, and I wouldn't wish on anyone any issues financially or health wise, but if anyone does need them - Then I hope to good they appreciate what comfort that Social Care safety net is to Millions of less privileged people it is.

PS - Whilst not agreeing with a lot of what you say on various subjects I will admit that you do engage and provide your opinions largely in a healthy for debate kind of way.
However unfortunately there seem to be others that walk that line of almost revelling in other peoples issues and show no empathy towards others.
If that's what floats their boat fair enough - But luckily there are enough people who will fight the corner for others.

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:36 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

That's not what I meant
Your position on Power - You either have the upper hand or you don't - That's all well and good when you come from a position of power
Unfortunately the people with the power tend to hold the Power in 95% of their dealings day to day

Shoe on the other foot and it's a whole different Ball game

I have found Unions to be useless - I don't particularly care for them - However if anyone thinks that ALL employers would treat workers fairly and not exercise their power over the more vulnerable if they could to maximise profits is living in dream land.
Andy maybe that's where unions and the EU do serve a purpose however outdated and useless you want to portray them

I hear every day people slagging Police/Courts & Judges/EU etc.
But it's only in times of crisis that we understand/rely on them

I am trying to be optimistic in my thinking that this crisis will change peoples priorities, show compassion when required, Understand that not everyone has the same Priorities (i.e. Money) in life, that people will understand that there does need to be and there is a place in our country for a "Safety Net" in the form of properly funded Social care (Really good segment on Jon Oliver Monday about American Health care and the state they are in and how it needs to change when all this is over).
My gut feeling is we won't - The ones who want to care about themselves will carry on doing so under some other Banner to explain their actions & politics. Whilst the vulnerable will continue to be classed as Lazy, Communists, Lefties, hippies or any other Name by them to hide their prejudices & whilst there is some of those issues that blight that cause/stance - It's no more IMO and probably less than the amount of Privileged people out there exploiting others for their own Benefit/profits.

I get it that someone will rip my post to pieces - IR80 will tell me that I have "Politics of Envy" etc. and that's fine. Crack on.
I'm personally doing fine in my life, I hope everyone else is, and I wouldn't wish on anyone any issues financially or health wise, but if anyone does need them - Then I hope to good they appreciate what comfort that Social Care safety net is to Millions of less privileged people it is.

PS - Whilst not agreeing with a lot of what you say on various subjects I will admit that you do engage and provide your opinions largely in a healthy for debate kind of way.
However unfortunately there seem to be others that walk that line of almost revelling in other peoples issues and show no empathy towards others.
If that's what floats their boat fair enough - But luckily there are enough people who will fight the corner for others.

A good post - I have always found it useful to put myself in the other person's shoes - I always try to be fair whilst ensuring the firm continues for the good of all its employees. It would be great to pay everyone a minimum of £15 hour - sadly I would be out of business because my customers simply wouldn't pay because their customers wouldn't pay them. I am lucky I can choose who I want to do business with and I have a good enough reputation that if I lose a customer no matter how big I can keep trading.

The problem with the unions in my experience is they only see things one way and they don't think long term - their model is all about now - plus they are terrible negotiators and the average IQ of the management is so low it would be laughable if it weren't so tragic. Their life experience is also so narrow - similar to the majority of MPs - that they are incapable of any kind of lateral thought. They do their members no favours - it is no surprise Labour struggle when these people have such a big influence on the party.

Take Unite - they still have a final salary scheme for the top brass - paid for by members who lost that opportunity years ago - they are so out of touch.

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:07 pm  

As a union member during my working life ,i viewed it as an advantage especially with other fringe benefits that were on offer. There was always someone to speak up in disputes or disciplinary matters too .
I think the work packages agreed with unions though were good on the whole. Also ,being a HGV driver for 40 years ,i firmly believe that the EU working time directive & driver's hours directive made working practises worse .Drivers in particular were much better off safety wise under Domestic Rules.

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:33 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

40% of the union membership not 40% of the workforce - for a start. So if the union call their members out what happens to non-union members who do the same job, they are also expected to strike - difficult to cross picket lines as you well know - that is one of the reasons why it isn't democratic - but then an educated man like you knew that (sic)

I said "40% of those eligible to vote". Clearly if you're not a union member you dont get to vote in union ballots. It's a bit like the UK electorate not including all of the UK population.

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:06 am  

Unions had a place in the past. These days with stringent H&S laws, employment law, moral and ethical working environments & employees........ it doesn't have a place. Hence the ever decreasing numbers/members

People are still scarred from the power strikes, bin strikes, ambulance strikes, fire strikes of the 70's and 80's. The train disruptions of recent haven't gone down well with the working population. My mate works on SW trains and he said we got a good pay rise I don't know why we are striking. Then he mentioned that the union had a desire to call an all out national train strike across the country. (I think at the time they had 4 franchises 'striking')

Job for life is long gone.

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:22 am  

silver2 wrote:

I said "40% of those eligible to vote". Clearly if you're not a union member you dont get to vote in union ballots. It's a bit like the UK electorate not including all of the UK population.

So less than 50% can dictate a strike - you think that is democratic in a binary vote? Even Brexit got >50%

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:25 am  

wire-quin wrote:

Unions had a place in the past. These days with stringent H&S laws, employment law, moral and ethical working environments & employees........ it doesn't have a place. Hence the ever decreasing numbers/members

People are still scarred from the power strikes, bin strikes, ambulance strikes, fire strikes of the 70's and 80's. The train disruptions of recent haven't gone down well with the working population. My mate works on SW trains and he said we got a good pay rise I don't know why we are striking. Then he mentioned that the union had a desire to call an all out national train strike across the country. (I think at the time they had 4 franchises 'striking')

Job for life is long gone.

Exactly my point the unions will deliberately force a poor situation in the hope of a bigger prizes - the workers are just pawns in a game. Fortunately the unions so intellectually sluggish they get beat every time.

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:10 am  

It would be nice if I was a Russian oligarch or an eastern European mafia captain in which I could click my fingers and get a tory to do my bidding but alas I am not and so I have to side with many like minded people to get things done - we have to participate (rightly so) in a legal vote but the oligarchs do not.

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:22 am  

wire-quin wrote:

Unions had a place in the past. These days with stringent H&S laws, employment law, moral and ethical working environments & employees........ it doesn't have a place. Hence the ever decreasing numbers/members

People are still scarred from the power strikes, bin strikes, ambulance strikes, fire strikes of the 70's and 80's. The train disruptions of recent haven't gone down well with the working population. My mate works on SW trains and he said we got a good pay rise I don't know why we are striking. Then he mentioned that the union had a desire to call an all out national train strike across the country. (I think at the time they had 4 franchises 'striking')

Job for life is long gone.

Well that's convinced me then
And here's me thinking that it had A LOT to do with removing guards from trains and making them DOO ?
Now I am sure there a million opinions on the relevant safety or not of DOO but I can rest at ease in future when commuting that your mate got his pay rise and he was ok (wonder if hed have got a pay rise if there eerent unions?) And I dont have to worry about passenger safety.
Because I am absolutely sure the people at the very top getting 80% of any profits are solely interested in passenger welfare and providing great service and not profits

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:26 am  

Mash Butty wrote:

It would be nice if I was a Russian oligarch or an eastern European mafia captain in which I could click my fingers and get a tory to do my bidding but alas I am not and so I have to side with many like minded people to get things done - we have to participate (rightly so) in a legal vote but the oligarchs do not.

Correct
And just because they arent run fantastically well, doesnt mean there isnt a place for them
Yes they should be improved and updated, but anyone who thinks a majority of Business wouldn't exploit workers or shortcut on H&S for example in the name of improved profits without there being organisations to keep them in check is living in dream land.
"SOME" businesses may, lots wont.