Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:49 pm  

Cronus wrote:

And? Remind me again which PM brought the case for the war in Iraq, and 254 MPs of which party voted for the war?

Boasting how many Labour MPs voted against the war is not a good argument when so many more voted FOR it.

I guess at least Comrade Cob is a 'pacifist' and wouldn't have led us into such an illogical, destructive and hugely destabilising conflict. Not that the country would have any money for a war if Cob was in No.10.

Well lets try another scenario, if the Tories had been in power, how many would have voted against going to war.

Cronus wrote:

That single sentence tells me you haven't listened to the speech. Or if you have, you weren't paying attention.

I tend to swerve her speeches & wait for the pundits to summarise. But by the sound of it, both J.R-M & the Soubry gang seem pleased with the mood music, is that not the case?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:52 pm  

Cronus wrote:

:lol: Pathetic.

You do realise if the Tories had voted proportionally exactly the same as Labour, the vote would still have gone through by some margin?

It was a Bliar and Labour war. He brought it, his party carried it through Parliament.

It’s 2018 dude. Putting a laughing smiley doesn’t give your argument credence. Laughing smileys were all the rage in 2007. A higher percentage of tories voted for it than labour. So whilst that buffoon Blair started the ball rolling, the tories rubbed their hands wiTh glee when voting YES

Regards

King James

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:05 pm  

The Devil's Advocate wrote:

Well lets try another scenario, if the Tories had been in power, how many would have voted against going to war.

Who knows? Perhaps a Tory PM would have refused to go to war altogether? We'll never know. It's hypothetical and pointless. What we do know is one Anthony Charles Lynton Blair and the Labour Party happily took us into the war. One of several reasons I'll never vote Labour again.

I tend to swerve her speeches & wait for the pundits to summarise. But by the sound of it, both J.R-M & the Soubry gang seem pleased with the mood music, is that not the case?

So I was correct, you haven't listened to it. Yet you comment on it.

Anyone who bases their views purely on pundits really doesn't deserve the time of day.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:05 pm  

Lebron James wrote:

It’s 2018 dude. Putting a laughing smiley doesn’t give your argument credence. Laughing smileys were all the rage in 2007. A higher percentage of tories voted for it than labour. So whilst that buffoon Blair started the ball rolling, the tories rubbed their hands wiTh glee when voting YES

Regards

King James

It's not supposed to give any credence. It's purely to indicate my amusement at you.

245 Labour MPs, 146 Tories. Nothing will ever change that fact. Suck it up.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:00 am  

What a pointless argument; Tony Blair let millions of Labour voters down, and is a war criminal - and all MP's who voted with him are complicit, regardless of party affiliation.

Fast forward to the present day - one Mr J Corbyn, with a flawless history of voting against interventionist wars, will be the next PM; so Cronus can rest easy that we won't be doing that again. And Brexit is still a pig in a poke - Mrs May's speech (which I did watch) is full of jingoistic, wishful cakeism, the majority of which she knows will never happen; it was yet another exercise in appeasing the 62 hard-line Brextremists in her own party, who seem intent on driving us of a cliff.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:59 am  

bren2k wrote:

What a pointless argument; Tony Blair let millions of Labour voters down, and is a war criminal - and all MP's who voted with him are complicit, regardless of party affiliation.

Fast forward to the present day - one Mr J Corbyn, with a flawless history of voting against interventionist wars, will be the next PM; so Cronus can rest easy that we won't be doing that again. And Brexit is still a pig in a poke - Mrs May's speech (which I did watch) is full of jingoistic, wishful cakeism, the majority of which she knows will never happen; it was yet another exercise in appeasing the 62 hard-line Brextremists in her own party, who seem intent on driving us of a cliff.

Unfortunately you are correct regarding corbyn. Due to an inept Tory party, jezza will be the next prime minister, that would be a disaster for this country. But under a democratic system I will have to accept that scenario.
Unlike some of the political class in this country, who are determined to overturn the democratic vote of leaving the European Union.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:12 am  

Backwoodsman wrote:

Unfortunately you are correct regarding corbyn. Due to an inept Tory party, jezza will be the next prime minister, that would be a disaster for this country. But under a democratic system I will have to accept that scenario.
Unlike some of the political class in this country, who are determined to overturn the democratic vote of leaving the European Union.

You make an interesting point "under a democratic system I will have to accept that scenario"

It is a shame that those who lost the vote cannot put that behind and contribute positively to achieving the best result for the country. There appears to be some vanity that suggests if they belly-ache enough they will get their way.

The border in Ireland should not be an issue - freight is moved across borders all over the world with electronic customs clearance and without the need for permanent border patrols.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:49 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

You make an interesting point "under a democratic system I will have to accept that scenario"

It is a shame that those who lost the vote cannot put that behind and contribute positively to achieving the best result for the country. There appears to be some vanity that suggests if they belly-ache enough they will get their way.

The border in Ireland should not be an issue - freight is moved across borders all over the world with electronic customs clearance and without the need for permanent border patrols.

Using your bench mark on democracy and accepting democratic decisions in Parliament, why is it that anyone feels the need to bring up the Iraq war, something voted on by our esteemed MP's.

Surely, on an open forum, we SHOULD be discussing what may be right, or wrong, with the events of the day.
Ultimately, it would be one hell of a risk for Parliament not to uphold the will of the people.

However, as negotiations move along, it's certainly worth Parliament having to ratify a deal prior to it's implementation and if the result is so far removed from the idea that was "sold", it may also be right to go to the electorate, either in a General Election of a second referendum.

With how things are beginning to play out and with May hinting at continued payments to the EU and concessions towards the European Parliament, it could well be the "vote leave" side that aren't happy with the deal.

Oh, the irony.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:24 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

It is a shame that those who lost the vote cannot put that behind and contribute positively to achieving the best result for the country.

Another interesting trope developed by Leavers - that we need to 'get behind' Brexit and 'make a success of it.' What does that look like exactly? And if I (and the increasing numbers of people who think it's economic suicide) suddenly start to send out positive Brexit vibes, will that be enough to fend off the inevitable decline in our economic outlook? If enough people start to believe that you actually *can* have your cake and eat it, will that make it true?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:01 pm  

bren2k wrote:

Another interesting trope developed by Leavers - that we need to 'get behind' Brexit and 'make a success of it.' What does that look like exactly? And if I (and the increasing numbers of people who think it's economic suicide) suddenly start to send out positive Brexit vibes, will that be enough to fend off the inevitable decline in our economic outlook? If enough people start to believe that you actually *can* have your cake and eat it, will that make it true?

Brexitiers are a bit like the pyramid sales "experts" of the 90's.
Always telling people that things were "brilliant" or "great", unfortunately, they all had to get proper jobs in the end, although, like now, there are just a few, at the top of the pile, who did quite well out of the dodgy dealings.
But, it was never any good for the masses, who were just a little worse off at the end.