[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:24 am  

Where we are right now, I still feel that, much as I don’t like it, May’s deal is the best of a bunch of bad options.

No deal would cause serious dislocation. Even its advocates usually include a caveat about the potential for success ‘if we prepare properly for it’. I’m dubious about that, but we haven’t anyway.

No Brexit might well cause unrest. Even if it ‘just’ causes more political polarisation, that’s bad enough. I don’t want to appease the far right, as they’ll always be hungry for more. However, the democratic decision to leave, in some form or other has to be respected. And at this point, I think just getting on with it and drawing a line under the whole sorry mess would be best.

So that leaves us with May’s deal, or some variant of it. I can’t see the EU being flexible and imaginative (ie weak and stupid) enough to remove the Irish border backstop though.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:30 am  

POSTL wrote:

I agree with most of what you say, I also saw the Farage re civil unrest. However, Ive said in previous posts that if we did have a general election as (everything is still on the table) Labour keep saying then I just don't know who I would I would vote for. UKIP would not to long ago be the ideal party for me, but they are going just to far right for me. I Just couldn't vote for the far right just as much as I couldn't vote for the far left. If UKIP are going to the far right as the reports suggest then that brings racism with it which I would find totally abhorrent. So ive got Tories who are totally split and making a mess of Brexit. Labour that won't commit to anything after 2 years. Lib Dems that are going against the will of the referendum to pick up cheap votes, and formed a coalition with the Tories at the last election and in doing so dropped there main promise of scrapping tuition fees, UKIP to far right for me

Paul

IF Farage (or anyone else stoke the prospect of civil unrest, it will happen).
Regardless of Brexit, we've had 10 years of austerity and although unemployment may be down, generally, people are hacked off with the way that the country had been run.
Protests are possible from all factions and it doesnt take too much to escalate protest into something close to riot

As for voting for an extremist party such as new (even further right) UKIP, people need to think just what they are voting for and for idiots like Farage to be stoking this fire as an idle threat is just down right irresponsible.

Mind you, he will probably bee out of the country when it all turns nasty and saying that he had nothing to do with it.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:47 am  

Bullseye wrote:

You’d vote hard right as in UKIP then, with Batten and his out and out racist agenda?

You should read a history book.

Yes, perhaps history books would be a good idea. Silencing the people is never a good idea. Especially when they have already exercised their democratic right - and won.

If Brexit were reversed I would absolutely vote for whichever far right party emerged from the mess, and damn the consequences. Why shouldn't I? While there are plenty of genuine and good MPs in Westminster, too many across all parties are self-serving and see themselves as above the people. To enact the democratic result of the referendum a drastic change would be required.

Answer me this: if Brexit is reversed and 17.4 million votes rejected, what would be the point of voting for the status quo?

The liberal left should be thinking very carefully about the consequences of getting what they wish for. They've trodden on dissenting voices for decades and eventually things will snap.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:47 am  

tigertot wrote:

I'm sure you showed the same snowflake outrage when May called a snap election less than 2 years after the last one & only gave opposition parties & the electorate a couple of months to prepare. I'm sure I saw you on the telly demonstrating against that blatant attempt to stifle opposition.

Nope, you couldn't be more wrong but then that's not unusual. Calling a GE was a good idea at the time and any party in the same position would have done the same. The problem came about when some bright spark at Tory HQ decided it would be a good time to announce controversial (but actually pretty effective) policies, and when some hack labelled one of them the 'dementia tax'.

Will I see you on the telly protesting Labour's blatant attempts to stifle the democratic Brexit process and drive us to a cliff edge for the sole purpose of pushing a snap election?

Not very good at this, are you.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:48 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Interesting post and it just shows what a bloody mess our politicians have made over this issue.
I've said many times that May should have both listened and involved people from a range of groups at the outset, instead of leaving her pseudo olive branch until almost after the event.

Even with something like May's deal which is struggling to get past Parliament, there will be more unhappy people than happy and with the broad range of view on the subject and the numerous warring factions, it's difficult to see just how life will pan out post Brexit.

The problem is that Farage and Co sold a dream rather than anything close to reality and should we drop off the cliff edge with a "hard Brexit", there could be problems in the opposite direction.

The same cycle would have happened, but possibly with more venom - resignations and replacements. That much should be clear by now. The different factions simply cannot agree and will not budge.

Farage & Co didn't sell me anything. I looked at what the EU had been, where it was now and where it is absolutely determined to go. I heard what EU leaders said about us (and others) who dared question their ideology, which incidentally I didn't entirely agree with in the first place. I looked at what had happened to the communities in which I lived and decided I didn't want it any more. Most crucially - I realised the EU will NEVER reform.

As I've said MANY times - if the EU had offered reform my vote would probably have been different.

If we leave with a reasonable deal, life post-Brexit will have its hiccups but will ultimately be fine. If we leave with no deal there will be a degree of civil unrest from the remain side, and up to a decade of hard times. If we reverse Brexit...well, I've covered that. Go on social media and read some of the comments on the 'martial law' articles in the press since yesterday and you'll get some idea of the growing anger out there.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:52 am  

Mild Rover wrote:

Where we are right now, I still feel that, much as I don’t like it, May’s deal is the best of a bunch of bad options.

No deal would cause serious dislocation. Even its advocates usually include a caveat about the potential for success ‘if we prepare properly for it’. I’m dubious about that, but we haven’t anyway.

No Brexit might well cause unrest. Even if it ‘just’ causes more political polarisation, that’s bad enough. I don’t want to appease the far right, as they’ll always be hungry for more. However, the democratic decision to leave, in some form or other has to be respected. And at this point, I think just getting on with it and drawing a line under the whole sorry mess would be best.

So that leaves us with May’s deal, or some variant of it. I can’t see the EU being flexible and imaginative (ie weak and stupid) enough to remove the Irish border backstop though.

Agree entirely. May's deal isn't perfect but that was never going to be the case. Vote it in and get on with life.

The backstop is indeed a problem, one being used as ammunition across all fronts. Ultimately no-one wants it long-term and no deal is not worth a few years of backstop.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:57 am  

POSTL wrote:

I agree with most of what you say, I also saw the Farage re civil unrest. However, Ive said in previous posts that if we did have a general election as (everything is still on the table) Labour keep saying then I just don't know who I would I would vote for. UKIP would not to long ago be the ideal party for me, but they are going just to far right for me. I Just couldn't vote for the far right just as much as I couldn't vote for the far left. If UKIP are going to the far right as the reports suggest then that brings racism with it which I would find totally abhorrent. So ive got Tories who are totally split and making a mess of Brexit. Labour that won't commit to anything after 2 years. Lib Dems that are going against the will of the referendum to pick up cheap votes, and formed a coalition with the Tories at the last election and in doing so dropped there main promise of scrapping tuition fees, UKIP to far right for me

Paul

I'll never vote Labour while Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott are stillaround, and the Lib Dems etc are too far bonkers left for me. Frankly by that point I'd be beyond caring and I will not have my voice silenced by self-serving vultures in Westminster. My vote goes elsewhere.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:58 am  

Cronus wrote:

Yes, perhaps history books would be a good idea. Silencing the people is never a good idea. Especially when they have already exercised their democratic right - and won.

If Brexit were reversed I would absolutely vote for whichever far right party emerged from the mess, and damn the consequences. Why shouldn't I? While there are plenty of genuine and good MPs in Westminster, too many across all parties are self-serving and see themselves as above the people. To enact the democratic result of the referendum a drastic change would be required.

Answer me this: if Brexit is reversed and 17.4 million votes rejected, what would be the point of voting for the status quo?

The liberal left should be thinking very carefully about the consequences of getting what they wish for. They've trodden on dissenting voices for decades and eventually things will snap.

IF Brexit was reversed (by a second referendum), surely, the majority would be getting what they wanted ??
Remember, Brexit is already reversing the will of the people who voted in the 70's.

Also, the vote already leaves large areas of the UK, Wales, N. Ireland and Scotland, having something imposed on them which they clearly voted against.
Indeed, one of the factors during the Scottish Independence vote, was that Cameron assured them that we would remain in the EU. Obviously you dont give a tinkers toss about their views.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:24 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

IF Brexit was reversed (by a second referendum), surely, the majority would be getting what they wanted ??
Remember, Brexit is already reversing the will of the people who voted in the 70's.

Also, the vote already leaves large areas of the UK, Wales, N. Ireland and Scotland, having something imposed on them which they clearly voted against.
Indeed, one of the factors during the Scottish Independence vote, was that Cameron assured them that we would remain in the EU. Obviously you dont give a tinkers toss about their views.

You and I both know the EU in its current form is light years away from what was voted for in the 70s - and probably from what it seeks to be in another 40 years. The creeping enforcement of an ideology over what should only ever have been a trading arrangement.

If a second referendum is called and remain wins, why should I respect that? Very, very few on the remain side have ever respected the first result, instead they've derided and condemned and fought against the entire process, all the while lying through their teeth to "respect the result". You want leavers to happily accept their first votes being rejected? Dangerous ground.

You obviously don't give a tinker's toss for the views of 17.4M people, taking in the vast majority of England and Wales and not forgetting the 1M in Scotland and 557k in N.Ireland. I don't know where you live but I'll guess Wakefield (or at least you hail from there) - 66.4% leave. You obviously don't give a tinker's toss about the views of your own community.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:30 pm  

Cronus wrote:

You and I both know the EU in its current form is light years away from what was voted for in the 70s - and probably from what it seeks to be in another 40 years. The creeping enforcement of an ideology over what should only ever have been a trading arrangement.

If a second referendum is called and remain wins, why should I respect that? Very, very few on the remain side have ever respected the first result, instead they've derided and condemned and fought against the entire process, all the while lying through their teeth to "respect the result". You want leavers to happily accept their first votes being rejected? Dangerous ground.

You obviously don't give a tinker's toss for the views of 17.4M people across vast swathes of England and Wales. I don't know where you live but I'll guess Wakefield (or at least you hail from there) - 66.4% leave. You obviously don't give a tinker's toss about the views of your own community.

100% agree, I voted remain, but the MAJORITY voted leave, but wrencat and his mates would like Corbyn in power, so that tells us everything. May is weak, but she passed a poisoned chalice by Cameron.

We need the REAL Conservative party to stand up, at the moment there is no spine in government and precious little even in wider parliament.