Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:57 pm  

tigertot wrote:

Are you suggesting we should therefore have a people's vote on every individual issue so MPs know exactly how one-third of their populace are feeling prior to any decision in the House; rather than what they think is best?

You'll be asking me next if I think parties should be held accountable for keeping manifesto promises.

I'm happy to agree to disagree, without insults.

Democracy has been to be of little substance or value, a sad time for the UK.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:20 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Sorry but, he's right.
Although, in a "straight line" you would expect an MP in a leave area to vote "leave" in Parliament.
The MP will have gained their seat based on a majority in their constituency.
There will be MP's of ALL parties, who, although, elected by a majority in their constituency, (of those who bothered to vote), are still following their party mandate or perhaps the party whip and as we've seen recently, even then, they can still vote (on all issues) whichever way they choose and come the next General Election, their constituents have the chance to either vote them back in or not.

Of course, Brexit wasn't decided along party lines, with voters, in many cases going against their chosen party's preference.
Not to mention the dreaded "no deal" vs "a deal".

Although it's not the same thing, we actually have a Prime Minister, currently voted in purely by the Tory membership, a mere 92000 people.
Democracy is indeed a strange thing in this country but, remember, the protection of our democracy and ability to make our own laws, is, we were told, what Brexit was all about.

Unfortunately, the Prime Minister, voted in by just 92,000 people now believes that Parliament should be shut down and that The High Court got their judgement wrong - how very ironic.

As for MP's serving their constituency, I'm sure that the vast majority would say that this is exactly what they are doing, although not everyone seems to like it.

All the PM is trying to do is deliver on the 17.4m who voted to leave guarantee if the opposite had happened and we had voted to remain and the MPs were trying to take us out you would up in arms big style

This about one thing and one thing only - the inability of the likes of you to accept that the general population didn’t see things as you did and as such your perceived intellectual superiority should have adhered to because everyone who voted the other way is either a fool or a racist. Your arrogance is duly noted

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:28 pm  

The Devil's Advocate wrote:

You may have seen these things, but I & the majority of the population haven't, Bo-jo has a prime time gig to peddle his message.

That "Little Englander" tag really gets under your skin doesn't it?

In all these years when did those "liars" promise they would facilitate leaving the E.U. without a deal?

It must have slipped your memory but there was a deal on the table, back when the Government had a working majority, yet it failed because of the "Little Englander" Tory M.P's.



Why should I read it, I'm not some kind of anorak. All I know is that the highest court in the land, not in Europe, deemed it wrong. If they had agreed with the length of the prorogation I would have been fine with that too.


A tiny influence in your eyes maybe, but his antics are the first news item on every T.V. across the land.

The deal failed because hundreds of Labour MPs voted en-mass to reject it - if they had supported the deal as they said they would then the deal would have flown through despite the ERG

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:40 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Have you gone and discovered the true ideology and long-term goals of the EU yet? Care to share your findings?

Yes thanks, I studied the EU constitution and its democratic institutions back in my university days. It's not the scary thing you read about in the Daily Mail or on Twitter or wherever this Project Fear stuff gets shared nowadays.

But, like Sal, you fall back into these simplistic tropes. Using the very phrase "the EU" as if it was some monster whose sole aim was to ruin the lives of patriotic Englishmen. One day you'll learn that "the EU" isn't a monolithic bloc, but simply the representative of 28 individual nation states who have agreed to work together to improve the lives of their citizens and preserve the peace on the continent. It's the opposite of scary, unless things or people that are different scare you as a matter of course.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:09 pm  

I’ve got a bit of sympathy with Johnson’s position on the use of ‘surrender’, not that I agree with that characterisation. However, it seems pretty tame compared with Bevan’s famous ‘lower than vermin’ quote, for example, and I think restricting robust language of the former type is problematic. I dislike it when people try to re-brand problems as challenges or opportunities for the same reason.

I have even more sympathy with people receiving death threats, of course, but Johnson, wazzock though I think he is, isn’t the one making them. The blame is with the hate-filled idiots who are and despite his many, many faults he isn’t one of them. The best way to honour Jo Cox line was very, very clumsy, mind you.

On the ‘betrayal’ by parliament, the farce of the no to every option indicative votes was undoubtedly a failure. On the other hand, i’m not sure any option would have commanded a majority in the country either, and that is why we’re stuck. Remainers need to get over their disappointment at the Leave result, and Leavers need to get over their disappointment with the results of leaving.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:11 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

Yes thanks, I studied the EU constitution and its democratic institutions back in my university days. It's not the scary thing you read about in the Daily Mail or on Twitter or wherever this Project Fear stuff gets shared nowadays.

Nah, don't believe you. You know why? That's the 3rd time I asked you today and you didn't mention it, and in the 2 years since Brexit that's the first time I've seen you mention it.

But, IF it's true, and you studied the EU at one of our universities stuffed full of left-wing liberal agenda-driven academics, then it's no wonder you're brainwashed.

But I'll humour you. Tell me, where will the EU be in 50 years?

But, like Sal, you fall back into these simplistic tropes. Using the very phrase "the EU" as if it was some monster whose sole aim was to ruin the lives of patriotic Englishmen. One day you'll learn that "the EU" isn't a monolithic bloc, but simply the representative of 28 individual nation states who have agreed to work together to improve the lives of their citizens and preserve the peace on the continent. It's the opposite of scary, unless things or people that are different scare you as a matter of course.

The EU is the representative name of the union. Or do you want me to individually mention each institution and nation every time? I'm well aware of the structure and constitution of the EU thank you.

Why on earth are you talking about it being scary? Christ alive. I'm not 'scared' of it, I simply don't agree with the ideology that drives it, nor where it's heading. I don't like their 'pillars' and I don't like the views of its leaders since inception, and I don't like the way their leaders have openly belittled and mocked the UK since we first proposed reform, I think I've mentioned this about a squillion times.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:39 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Tell me, where will the EU be in 50 years?

50 years - that is a long-ass time, especially with ever faster social and technological change, so I think we need to provide a range. Somewhere between ecologically distressed white ethnostate and nuclear fusion fuelled liberal-leaning leisure paradise, most likely.

Nobody knows, do they? Soldiers returning from the First World War couldn’t foresee the Cold War, the Apollo missions, or hippies and free love, and those hippies in turn probably weren’t expecting the likes of Trump and Johnson as prominent leaders of the anglosphere.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:04 pm  

Cronus wrote:

and I don't like the way their leaders have openly belittled and mocked the UK since we first proposed reform, I think I've mentioned this about a squillion times.

Oh God, here we go again. Where on earth do you get your news from, our fellow EU members have bent over backwards to give the UK opt outs, rebates and preferential treatment. Just because whatever media you consume leaves you misinformed, doesn't make it reality.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:57 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

Oh God, here we go again. Where on earth do you get your news from, our fellow EU members have bent over backwards to give the UK opt outs, rebates and preferential treatment. Just because whatever media you consume leaves you misinformed, doesn't make it reality.

Just because you interpret things one way doesn’t mean it is correct. The EU have never bent over backwards to give the UK a better deal they have been pushed to concede by previous forceful leaders particularly Thatcher. The have conceded because some billions is better than no billions - the EU is not the benevolent entity you paint it out to be.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:24 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

All the PM is trying to do is deliver on the 17.4m who voted to leave guarantee if the opposite had happened and we had voted to remain and the MPs were trying to take us out you would up in arms big style

This about one thing and one thing only - the inability of the likes of you to accept that the general population didn’t see things as you did and as such your perceived intellectual superiority should have adhered to because everyone who voted the other way is either a fool or a racist. Your arrogance is duly noted

Is that the same PM who voted down May's deal (twice) and helped ensure that she resigned - so that he could put himself forward for PM.

As for people like me. Yes, I voted remain - there is no secret about that and from day on, I, along with many others, suggested that it would be impossible to keep the same benefits outside the EU that we currently "enjoy" and it's quite right for MP's to try and keep the PM and the "leave" side to their promise of a no hard border in Ireland, no contributions to the EU and most of all a free trade deal.

So far, this government, along with the previous government, havent been able to reach consensus among its cabinet or it's own MP's, never mind coming close to satisfying the rest of Parliament or the wider population.

I'll take the perceived intellectual superiority though, as right now, at least I was bright enough to know that we were being lied to and conned, something which Boris has continued to do in spades, since becoming to PM and some people couldnt spot the lies - the clue was when you saw his lips move.

You still see people on TV being interviewed that didn't know that there were 2 parts of Ireland or, different products had tariffs applied as they come into the country etc, etc, etc
However, the one absolute certainty is that NOBODY knew what they were voting for as this will only become known if/when a deal is agreed.

If he (Boris) can get remotely close to what was promised by the leave campaign, there may still be a chance of getting a deal through Parliament after the next election but, having dismissed 21 of his own MP's, there is no chance of him passing anything through Parliament for now, not even a recess for his own party conference - yet another misjudgement by the country's new leader.

Fundamentally, if the PM is prepared to break the law to get his own way, why should ANYONE try and abide to the laws that currently exist