Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:16 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Is that the same PM who voted down May's deal (twice) and helped ensure that she resigned - so that he could put himself forward for PM.

As for people like me. Yes, I voted remain - there is no secret about that and from day on, I, along with many others, suggested that it would be impossible to keep the same benefits outside the EU that we currently "enjoy" and it's quite right for MP's to try and keep the PM and the "leave" side to their promise of a no hard border in Ireland, no contributions to the EU and most of all a free trade deal.

So far, this government, along with the previous government, havent been able to reach consensus among its cabinet or it's own MP's, never mind coming close to satisfying the rest of Parliament or the wider population.

I'll take the perceived intellectual superiority though, as right now, at least I was bright enough to know that we were being lied to and conned, something which Boris has continued to do in spades, since becoming to PM and some people couldnt spot the lies - the clue was when you saw his lips move.

You still see people on TV being interviewed that didn't know that there were 2 parts of Ireland or, different products had tariffs applied as they come into the country etc, etc, etc
However, the one absolute certainty is that NOBODY knew what they were voting for as this will only become known if/when a deal is agreed.

If he (Boris) can get remotely close to what was promised by the leave campaign, there may still be a chance of getting a deal through Parliament after the next election but, having dismissed 21 of his own MP's, there is no chance of him passing anything through Parliament for now, not even a recess for his own party conference - yet another misjudgement by the country's new leader.

Fundamentally, if the PM is prepared to break the law to get his own way, why should ANYONE try and abide to the laws that currently exist

He didn't break the law.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:22 pm  

IR80 wrote:

He didn't break the law.

I think you will find that he did.
It's all a bit technical but, he broke constitutional law and not criminal law.

Look it up, it's a right riveting read.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:52 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

Oh God, here we go again. Where on earth do you get your news from, our fellow EU members have bent over backwards to give the UK opt outs, rebates and preferential treatment. Just because whatever media you consume leaves you misinformed, doesn't make it reality.

Yes, we won a few minor reforms but others were firmly rejected. And nothing of major importance changed.

Anyway, my comment didn't refer to that. It referred to the language of the EU even when Cameron was seeking reforms. Since 2015 we've been belittled, insulted and generally treated like sh-t. Granted, they've had to listen to UKIP in the EP and watch our ludicrous Parliament, but their tone was clear even before the referendum. We are the rich, disliked but grudgingly tolerated, unsophisticated and uncouth cousins of 'true' Europe.

You should watch 'Paxman in Brussels' (it's on Youtube). It wasn't the decider for me by far, but it shone a stark light on a few truths.

And I'll try again, albeit with a short timespan: where do you see the EU in 30 years? Bearing in mind the ultimate goals of it's earliest founders...

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:31 pm  

IR80 wrote:

He didn't break the law.

All that, and that's the only thing you comment on?

I bet you've got a great posting history in the Daily Mail and Daily Express echo chambers.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:29 am  

Cronus wrote:

Yes, we won a few minor reforms but others were firmly rejected. And nothing of major importance changed.

We already had, and have, a favourable deal in the first place.

Cronus wrote:

Anyway, my comment didn't refer to that. It referred to the language of the EU even when Cameron was seeking reforms. Since 2015 we've been belittled, insulted and generally treated like sh-t.

Honestly, you Brexiteers never cease to amaze. You think you're being insulted because you read some propaganda in the hard right press and decide it's worth destroying our economy for. What a total and utter snowflake.

Cronus wrote:

And I'll try again, albeit with a short timespan: where do you see the EU in 30 years? Bearing in mind the ultimate goals of it's earliest founders...

They'll probably continue to tweak rules so that trade becomes even more barrier free, continue to do trade deals with other large blocs. But here's the problem with conspiracy-ridden Brexiteers: you just paranoidly assume this monolithic monster is out to destroy Britondom on some pre-determined plan. You just can't see that the EU is a collection of member states behind which sit the governments and behind which sit the people. Everything depends on how politics moves.

Over the past 20 years, pushed ironically enough by Britain, the EU has become rather right wing in lots of ways with the application of British-style free markets into lots of areas which probably aren't appropriate. Hence for example other countries have split up their railways into track owning and operational entities, just like us, because it lets companies from across Europe to be able to freely bid on operations.

But there's now a general move to the left in politics amongst younger people so the EU will probably reflect that a bit more. It won't change the fundamentals, which are a trading bloc where goods can move quickly and easily for mutual benefit to all members, because, you know, that's a foundation stone upon which our and their prosperity is built and it would be insane to fundamentally tamper with, or leave, it. But it may instead focus on, for example, more help for the poorest areas or encouraging greater collaboration on climate change etc. But forgive me if I guess what your views on the last two topics are.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:07 am  

King Street Cat wrote: All that, and that's the only thing you comment on? I bet you've got a great posting history in the Daily Mail and Daily Express echo chambers. as said before, I don't read any right wing media, I just see the facts as they are. And wrencat1873, I am aware of the differences in legality, summed up quite well by Channel 4. https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... -explained

King Street Cat wrote: All that, and that's the only thing you comment on? I bet you've got a great posting history in the Daily Mail and Daily Express echo chambers. as said before, I don't read any right wing media, I just see the facts as they are. And wrencat1873, I am aware of the differences in legality, summed up quite well by Channel 4. https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... -explained

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:48 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

It's all a bit technical but, he broke constitutional law and not criminal law.

I think we might find his inability to keep his nob in his pants led him to commit a criminal offence while mayor.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:07 am  

tigertot wrote:

I think we might find his inability to keep his nob in his pants led him to commit a criminal offence while mayor.

I doubt that very much what is for certain his use/misuse will pale into insignificance when compared to the antics of Livinstone.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:14 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

We already had, and have, a favourable deal in the first place.

Honestly, you Brexiteers never cease to amaze. You think you're being insulted because you read some propaganda in the hard right press and decide it's worth destroying our economy for. What a total and utter snowflake.

They'll probably continue to tweak rules so that trade becomes even more barrier free, continue to do trade deals with other large blocs. But here's the problem with conspiracy-ridden Brexiteers: you just paranoidly assume this monolithic monster is out to destroy Britondom on some pre-determined plan. You just can't see that the EU is a collection of member states behind which sit the governments and behind which sit the people. Everything depends on how politics moves.

Over the past 20 years, pushed ironically enough by Britain, the EU has become rather right wing in lots of ways with the application of British-style free markets into lots of areas which probably aren't appropriate. Hence for example other countries have split up their railways into track owning and operational entities, just like us, because it lets companies from across Europe to be able to freely bid on operations.

But there's now a general move to the left in politics amongst younger people so the EU will probably reflect that a bit more. It won't change the fundamentals, which are a trading bloc where goods can move quickly and easily for mutual benefit to all members, because, you know, that's a foundation stone upon which our and their prosperity is built and it would be insane to fundamentally tamper with, or leave, it. But it may instead focus on, for example, more help for the poorest areas or encouraging greater collaboration on climate change etc. But forgive me if I guess what your views on the last two topics are.

What I don’t understand is if being a member of the EU is great why don’t the EU teach us a short sharp lesson. Let us go with no deal and then we will surely encounter the Armageddon you so confidently predict and we will then coming running back with our tails between our legs on a deal much more preferable to the EU?

Always a negative to break a deal up on bad terms. A lot of people are not happy with comments like Tusk’s hell etc and if we do leave there will need to be another vote to go back in?

Could it be the EU really needs our money and that is the bottom line here

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:48 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

What I don’t understand is if being a member of the EU is great why don’t the EU teach us a short sharp lesson. Let us go with no deal and then we will surely encounter the Armageddon you so confidently predict and we will then coming running back with our tails between our legs on a deal much more preferable to the EU?

Always a negative to break a deal up on bad terms. A lot of people are not happy with comments like Tusk’s hell etc and if we do leave there will need to be another vote to go back in?

Could it be the EU really needs our money and that is the bottom line here

*Bangs head on desk*

You still think the EU is some monster. They aren't interested in "teaching us a lesson" FFS. They will collaterally be affected by our chaos, especially the Republic of Ireland, whose interests have been paramount from their position throughout this mess.

And honestly, your whataboutism is staggering. Brexiteers come up with all sorts of pseudo-racist, mostly outlandish, generally tremendously unpleasant comments about EU and EU leaders but as soon as Tusk makes a little joke or makes a very reasonable prediction of the likely future you are into full on snowflake mode and crying like Robert Hicks has just ruled out a try without checking with the video ref. It's unbelievable, staggering hypocrisy.

As for "the money". You really think EU leaders are hooked up to British money like a drip. It's just such a total misunderstanding of the situation, of how politics works and of how small an amount of money it is in the overall scheme of things that I don't think there's much hope for you.