Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:58 pm  

I was made redundant 13 years ago i wasn't in the union some off the guys were in the union, they underlined they only needed x amount of men and they were doing it on a last in first out basis, i accepted it and started looking for another job upon being given 2 months notice, the guys in the union fought it. In the end we all went at the end of the 2 months, union or not it made no difference. 6 months later i get a letter through the door asking me if i want my old job back, i was working but they were offering better terms, i came back and worked for them on the same terms i left with and worked for them for another 2 years before i left for a better job, non of the guys who had been in the union who fought it were invited to come back, who got the better deal out of that?

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:00 pm  

Horatio Yed wrote:

I was made redundant 13 years ago i wasn't in the union some off the guys were in the union, they underlined they only needed x amount of men and they were doing it on a last in first out basis, i accepted it and started looking for another job upon being given 2 months notice, the guys in the union fought it. In the end we all went at the end of the 2 months, union or not it made no difference. 6 months later i get a letter through the door asking me if i want my old job back, i was working but they were offering better terms, i came back and worked for them on the same terms i left with and worked for them for another 2 years before i left for a better job, non of the guys who had been in the union who fought it were invited to come back, who got the better deal out of that?

Well, it doesn't get more conclusive than that.

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:02 pm  

Horatio Yed wrote:

I was made redundant 13 years ago i wasn't in the union some off the guys were in the union, they underlined they only needed x amount of men and they were doing it on a last in first out basis, i accepted it and started looking for another job upon being given 2 months notice, the guys in the union fought it. In the end we all went at the end of the 2 months, union or not it made no difference. 6 months later i get a letter through the door asking me if i want my old job back, i was working but they were offering better terms, i came back and worked for them on the same terms i left with and worked for them for another 2 years before i left for a better job, non of the guys who had been in the union who fought it were invited to come back, who got the better deal out of that?

And in my experience, in a variety of non-unionised companies I've worked for since the early 1980s, I've found absolutely sh*tty bosses who would sack you for all manner of reasons – for example, because I wouldn't lie in one case, because the boss himself was incompetent in another and because I wasn't prepared to work extra hours for nothing in order to help the editor herself make extra in yet another.

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:02 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

When did the good people of Swindon start speaking geordie?

Hey Honda/Nissan they all look the same mate...

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:04 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

Well, it doesn't get more conclusive than that.

I'm not equating it to the whole union experience you sarky sod, and neither is that my reasoning for not being in a union as i've never been in a union, i don't personally see the need for them, i've asked for a pay increase in one of my jobs and negotiated it myself and i'm a honest hard worker so i don't need them to fight my corner either, the world helps those that help themselves

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:05 pm  

I agree with much of what Mintball is suggesting but there is a difference between like to have and reality.

Plenty of people manage to get on quite happily without the need for the support of a union, they are able to negotiate their pay and conditions unaided, given the shrinking union membership I would suggest they are in the majority.

I signed up to a final salary scheme when I joined this company - the company closed it, that is the reality outside of the public sector. I am still lucky my employer pays in 3 times what I do into my pension.

I agree everyone should be paid a living wage - whatever that is - but there has to be an acceptance that certain people will be paid more than others through simple supply and demand. Whilst a lollipop lady does carry out a valuable job the skill required to do it is attainable by virtually anyone which is shown in the wage. You appear to be suggesting - I may be wrong - that their pay should be in line with a manager in the private sector?

Bailing out the bankers has been an expensive exercise - although with a bit a luck the country will recover it and some. I have no truck with the likes of Goodwin and Cameron at RBS, they should be - Cameron especially, Goodwin had no grasp of what Cameron was doing, in jail IMO. The fact still remained the Labour government was increasing the deficit significantly through extreme spending on public services which was beginning to cause some serious concerns which were compounded by the banking stuff.

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:25 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I agree with much of what Mintball is suggesting but there is a difference between like to have and reality.

Plenty of people manage to get on quite happily without the need for the support of a union, they are able to negotiate their pay and conditions unaided, given the shrinking union membership I would suggest they are in the majority.

I signed up to a final salary scheme when I joined this company - the company closed it, that is the reality outside of the public sector. I am still lucky my employer pays in 3 times what I do into my pension.

I agree everyone should be paid a living wage - whatever that is - but there has to be an acceptance that certain people will be paid more than others through simple supply and demand. Whilst a lollipop lady does carry out a valuable job the skill required to do it is attainable by virtually anyone which is shown in the wage. You appear to be suggesting - I may be wrong - that their pay should be in line with a manager in the private sector?

Bailing out the bankers has been an expensive exercise - although with a bit a luck the country will recover it and some. I have no truck with the likes of Goodwin and Cameron at RBS, they should be - Cameron especially, Goodwin had no grasp of what Cameron was doing, in jail IMO. The fact still remained the Labour government was increasing the deficit significantly through extreme spending on public services which was beginning to cause some serious concerns which were compounded by the banking stuff.

I don't often get the opportunity to do this.
I agree.

I'd just say though, that collective bargaining saves the employer a lot of time and money in a lot of cases.
Using your lollipop lady example ... you wouldn't negotiate with lollipop ladies individually would you?

Mind you, there's one near where I live who must be on some kind of bonus based on how much traffic she can disrupt.

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:11 pm  

Horatio Yed wrote:

I'm not equating it to the whole union experience you sarky sod,

Sarcastic? Me? Never.

Horatio Yed wrote:

and neither is that my reasoning for not being in a union as i've never been in a union, i don't personally see the need for them, i've asked for a pay increase in one of my jobs and negotiated it myself and i'm a honest hard worker so i don't need them to fight my corner either, the world helps those that help themselves

What about those who pay a trade union to negotiate on their behalf? Aren't they helping themselves? Sure, you may have the confidence, eloquence and necessary access to those who decide your remuneration to make direct negotiation entirely realistic. But that's not the case for everyone, and it would get very time consuming for the Chief Executive of (for example) Hull City Council if he had to enter wage negotiations with every lollipop lady, cleaner, dinner lady, road sweeper etc etc individually.

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:03 pm  

Mintball wrote:

There's plenty of evidence, yes.

Do please provide it then...

Mintball wrote:

I may have missed it, but I don't recall you responding to my last answer to you in that debate, about the huge rise in the cost of essentials over the last 30 years, from housing to prescriptions, to education to opthalmic and dental care to fuel and transport costs.

I got bored of you skirting around the issue. Yes, inflation means things cost more now. However what is the difference in real terms and how does that compare to the increase in wages for all but the top few?
It also occurred to me that the claim was far too vague and wide reaching to ever be corroborated. I mean, what is the 'cost of living'? How can that be succinctly quantified? I guess at least it may be possible to put a figure on the average increase in wages for all but a given top earning x% of the population. But you haven't even managed that.

Mintball wrote:

Of course, perhaps you can show that all wages have risen concomitantly ...

If I had the evidence to backup or refute your claims I wouldn't have been asking you to provide it. I've made no claims, I'd just like to know if there's any truth to the things you are stating as facts.

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:12 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

But that's not the case for everyone, and it would get very time consuming for the Chief Executive of (for example) Hull City Council if he had to enter wage negotiations with every lollipop lady, cleaner, dinner lady, road sweeper etc etc individually.

Why would the Chief Executive have to do it? In my experience wage negotiations form a natural part of the performance appraisal process and so are conducted with the manager you report to.