Re: Dogs : Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:26 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Is that a serious question? Well, assuming it is, I would reply that if the dog understands that I and the wife are the decision makers, then the dogs can relax and simply look to us for decisions, instead of stressing over thinking they have to do everything themselves.

The comment about not being a dog is a bit strange. It doesn't matter, though. So far as the dogs are concerned we are all a pack, it is all they understand. Live together = pack.

No they don't, read my above article especially the quote I have quoted from it. Carry on arguing all you like but you are arguing with the expert behaviourists who disagree with you.

Re: Dogs : Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:44 pm  

Hull White Star wrote:

No they don't, read my above article especially the quote I have quoted from it. Carry on arguing all you like but you are arguing with the expert behaviourists who disagree with you.

They disagree with me? I don't see my name, or anything I have said, quoted or disagreed with. Exactly where do they "disagree" with me? I think it is YOU who needs to read your cited article. It is not arguing that there is no such thing as a pack. Quite the opposite.

OTOH, I can SEE the concepts I am talking about in real life action, with my dogs, and the many dogs I owned previously. So I'm not talking in the abstract. Also, I know expert behaviourists. I have had dogs trained by expert behaviourists. I don't have much surprise if there are varying opinions in any complex field but I think the problem is largely you misreading my position.

What is it you think I am "arguing" with? Do you actually even know?

I've been having a brief browse through some of the stuff posted by your Mr Kelley. For example:

Meanwhile in Natural Dog Training our focus is always on changing the dog's emotional state first because we know once we do that and bring the dog's emotions back into balance, the right behavior will always follow.

I entirely agree that a dog must be brought out of an excited state into one of calm and no stress, before its behaviour can be modified. I wouldn't quite agree that "the right behaviour will always follows" - as the dog doesn't naturally know what you cnsider the "right behaviour" to be - but in a calm stae, it will be amenable to, and will soon, learn it.

The interesting thing I found was that Kelley espouses what he calls'"Natural Dog Training".

Natural Dog Training, which is based on the way working dogs (herding dogs, police dogs, search-and-rescue dogs, drug and bomb detection dogs, etc, etc.) are trained. These are among the most-obedient dogs on the planet, and they're all trained through games that stimulate and satisfy their hunting instincts.

Well, quite. I myself gave the example of a young border collie being naturally able to exhibit herding abilities instinctively, and that is just how it works.

the idea that dogs actually want to learn and are eager to obey us, it's part of their cooperative nature as group predators. So dog training is no longer a choice between dominating a dog or bribing him to obey. Obedience is part of every dog's wild predatory heritage.

"Obedience", right? But obeying whom? And why? Surely not someone from whom the dog takes its lead? Like, say, the shepherd with the whistle?

I would incidentally, repeat the distinction I made earlier between addressing a dog's behaviour and obedience. Some things are not the dog's natural choice but they are happy to be trained to obey, as well as to behave.

Re: Dogs : Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:05 pm  

JerryChicken wrote:

That happens with many dogs, its a natural defence mechanism from feeling restricted on a lead, as I mentioned before a dog has only two mechanisms to deal with a perceived threat (not the same as what we'd see as a threat), to run away/show submission or to fight - they can do neither properly when tied to you. Mix in the fact that the dog also wants to protect you and you start to understand why many dogs can be more aggressive on the lead than off.

My own does not walk well on the lead as he pulls like hell because he always wants to be out in front - you can see this when you let him off the lead in open space, he then trots off 20 yards in front of you and will happily stay there all day, turning to check you every 30 seconds or so, part of that is a breed specific thing because GSD's have a trot that they can maintain all day, unfortunately its slightly faster than human walking pace but its what he feels more comfortable doing and off the lead he is extremely relaxed and a very friendly dog.

I can recommend you a dog trainer who will help you sort this out in one session, if you want his details PM me.

Re: Dogs : Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:05 pm  

Hull White Star wrote:

Just out of interest, have you worked with him to coax him out of this habit, like taking two of you to walk him, then letting the second person walk less and less distance with you to the point where he is comfortable with one walker or do two of you always have to walk him? I'm just curious as to how you get around it. Personally if I could always walk him with two I think I would to give him comfort if nothing else. Isn't sad how one incident for him can totally change a behaviour forever.

Its quite a complex problem and a little irrational to a human, and I possibly over-complicated things some time ago too.

Basically when we picked him up from the Dogs Trust he was fine, would walk with me alone to a large nearby playing field where he loves (still loves) chasing a ball around but I believe that at the time it was all new to him and he was acting very subversent to me basically clinging to me as the one who fed him every night.

Once he got a little more confident and settled then his phobia kicked in and it soon became apparent that he would not walk with one person, was fine with two, but with one he'll get to the end of the drive and panic - and you can see it in his eyes, its sheer panic and even food won't distract him (a Dogs Trust training trick), its quite upsetting to see actually.

What I did find at this time was that he was perfectly happy getting into the car so I'd load him up and drive to a park where he'd quite happily walk with me alone - its the leaving of the house and walking beyond the car where it kicks in, as soon as he sees that we are one on one and we're not going in the car then the panic hits.

Problem was that he soon started to have problems with confinment in the car, I had him in the rear of a hatchback with a steel tubular dog guard, he bit through the steel tube and demolished it in three sessions, I replaced this with a steel mesh dog guard and tie wrapped and jubilee clipped it to the head restraints - it lasted a few weeks until he'd wrecked it and chewed the back off one of the car seats trying to get out, I bought a harness with a seat belt and fastened him to the back seat but he bit through the seat belt material at his first attempt - all he wants to do is be free of restraint and sit in the front with me, which I won't allow - I've got a new car and he's banned from it

We haven't tried your trick and may give that a go, meanwhile we're taking him in pairs or I run him very hard in the garden chasing after a ball and treats, its not what I want though and is far from ideal.

Re: Dogs : Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:19 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

I can recommend you a dog trainer who will help you sort this out in one session, if you want his details PM me.

Hope they are members of APDT which I guess they are not as no APDT trainer will claim to "sort out" a problem in just one session. It can takes many many months if at all to sort out the sort of trauma that JC's dog has.

Re: Dogs : Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:26 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

I can recommend you a dog trainer who will help you sort this out in one session, if you want his details PM me.

My only problem is that I know that if a stranger spent five minutes associating with him then he would let them lead him down the street with no problem in the same way that he did with me when he first came to us, we've tried this with our in-laws who live in the north east on the one or two occasions that they've visited our house.

We've just got to keep persevering with him because he's a gorgeous dog otherwise and there is no way that I want to cause him any more trauma in his life.

Re: Dogs : Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:34 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

They disagree with me? I don't see my name, or anything I have said, quoted or disagreed with. Exactly where do they "disagree" with me? I think it is YOU who needs to read your cited article. It is not arguing that there is no such thing as a pack..

You are arguing that you have to be pack leader:

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

So does every dog. This means it thinks its job is to be pack leader. All you have to do is train it that you are the leader of the pack, and it will walk brilliantly at your side.

I (and most trainers now) are arguing that there is no such thing. There is a big difference between pack and pack leader. I have quoted from the article by Mr Kelly and an article from the APDT which clearly states that there is no such thing as being pack leader or in your words" train the dog that you are leader of the pack" which is if I'm reading it correct you are saying you train the dog as you being a dominant (not using dominant methods, thats another thing) pack leader, ie you "show him who's boss", which is just not scientifically correct anymore therefore your way of thinking and application of methods is wrong (according to the experts).

Re: Dogs : Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:45 pm  

No problems with my dog, we both know who the boss is



Him

Re: Dogs : Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:06 am  

Hull White Star wrote:

You are arguing that you have to be pack leader:

No, in the context of going for a walk the dog understands that i am the pack leader. Once it gets that, it is happy to let me lead. Misconstrue as much as you want but the reason my dog happily walks at my chosen pace and in my chosen direction paying attention to me, and not to distractions, is because it knows and accepts that I am leading and it is following.

Hull White Star wrote:

I (and most trainers now) are arguing that there is no such thing. There is a big difference between pack and pack leader.

I think you are off on some arcane flight of fancy and not dealing with simple basics of dog behaviour. It is in this context pure semantics. It is clear to anyone that dog will happily do what you want it to do, if it accepts that it takes its lead and direction from you. I am happy to refer to that as being, in the context of the desired behaviour, the leder, and the dog thus the follower, if you like, but you can call it whatever you want. The end result is the same - I am calling the shots, and the dog is extremely content to follow my lead.

Hull White Star wrote:

I have quoted from the article by Mr Kelly and an article from the APDT which clearly states that there is no such thing as being pack leader or in your words" train the dog that you are leader of the pack" which is if I'm reading it correct you are saying you train the dog as you being a dominant

I would not use the word dominant because in the context you are using it you are suggesting the dog is doing what is expected out of fear or subservience or inferiority. I am trying to say that that is not how it works, the dog is bred in such a way that it is happy to take a secondary place and leave the decisions to its owners (well, in the case of most domestic breeds anyway) but here's the key - the dog is HAPPY to do this, it isn't being "dominated" as you put it. If you want to be pedantic, you could say that I am the dominat one in the relationship but that is just semantics, and misleading, as I don't dominate the dog - it just understands that I am in charge, and is relaxed and happy in that knowledge. This is a key distinction.

Hull White Star wrote:

(not using dominant methods, thats another thing) pack leader, ie you "show him who's boss",

What do you mean by that? You keep suggesting by the phrases you use that there is some form of coercion, aggression or domination or something going on. Whereas I have repeatedly explained that the methods I have been taught to correct your dog's behaviour don't even involve saying a single word - much less any screaming, shouting, beating, telling off or anything of the sort. The dog "gets" that I am the decision maker of the things I want to be the decision maker of, and it is happy with that.

I would only say that the dog has to be happy with that, that is fundamental. It doesn't behave in a certain way out of fear or intimidation, but because it accepts and likes the situation.

therefore your way of thinking and application of methods is wrong (according to the experts).

There are thousands of "experts", and they have a wide variety of opinions. You shouldn't assume that one particular person has all the answers and anyone on the planet who disagrees is of necessity wrong. Be that as it may, however, as I haven't stated or been asked to state anything specific at all about any single method I use, I'd be interested to know how you feel able to say this.

Re: Dogs : Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:26 am  

Hull White Star wrote:

Hope they are members of APDT which I guess they are not as no APDT trainer will claim to "sort out" a problem in just one session. It can takes many many months if at all to sort out the sort of trauma that JC's dog has.

And cost many months of recurring fees, eh? Hmmm....

The truth is, I have seen the trainer "sort out" common behavioural problems in one session. He's done it for me. Other more deep-seated issues he can effect an immediate and noticeable improvement. In each case he will explain what is going on, teach the owner the techniques to continue to address the issue to maintain the change in behaviour, or in more complex issues, to improve and eliminate it in time. The main thing there is that apart from anything else the owner would now understand what the issue is and why it is there, be trained in the methods of dealing with it, and then armed with that you are well on the way to resolving it.

I mentioned earlier this evening JC's specific problem to this trainer over the phone and he has previously dealt with a similar case, it isn't new to him.