[Mild Rover]

Re: New sides : Mon May 04, 2020 1:43 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The only area where I have suffered is through my own inabilities - if you are bright enough you can be a brain surgeon - don't have to be rich, you can be a top lawyer - don't have to start off rich. I can't be a PL footballer - most of whom come from poor backgrounds and there are plenty of BAME playing in the PL - not because I didn't come from a rich background but because I have no ability at football etc.

Everybody has 99% of all opportunities - most simply can't see the opportunity and don't have the desire to take it.

I’m glad, genuinely, that you feel you have been able to fulfil your potential. However, just because barriers are not completely insurmountable and/or haven’t impacted us as individuals doesn’t mean they’re not real or problematic.

Brain surgeons and lawyers, absolutely you don’t have to start out in advantaged situation. Disproportionately they will, and to some degree that is inevitable, but it is a question of degree. Does the presence of black footballers in the PL mean that box is ticked, and we shouldn’t see the absence of openly gay male professional players as odd and troubling? It’s hardly like racism itself has ceased to be an issue at PL games is it?

Re: New sides : Mon May 04, 2020 4:57 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

I’m glad, genuinely, that you feel you have been able to fulfil your potential. However, just because barriers are not completely insurmountable and/or haven’t impacted us as individuals doesn’t mean they’re not real or problematic.

Brain surgeons and lawyers, absolutely you don’t have to start out in advantaged situation. Disproportionately they will, and to some degree that is inevitable, but it is a question of degree. Does the presence of black footballers in the PL mean that box is ticked, and we shouldn’t see the absence of openly gay male professional players as odd and troubling? It’s hardly like racism itself has ceased to be an issue at PL games is it?

Its how you deal with adversity that makes you as a person - we can all look good when the everything is going along without a hitch it is how you cope when its not where you learn the biggest lessons - if you can't deal with adversity surely that is a personal not a societal issue?

Racism still exists in Football mainly in London it seems - look how Sterling dealt with it? Openly gay footballer - tough one in any sporting environment - doesn't seem to be the case in ladies sport - which is equally odd unless the %s of gay ladies are high?

[Mild Rover]

Re: New sides : Mon May 04, 2020 8:31 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Its how you deal with adversity that makes you as a person - we can all look good when the everything is going along without a hitch it is how you cope when its not where you learn the biggest lessons - if you can't deal with adversity surely that is a personal not a societal issue?

Racism still exists in Football mainly in London it seems - look how Sterling dealt with it? Openly gay footballer - tough one in any sporting environment - doesn't seem to be the case in ladies sport - which is equally odd unless the %s of gay ladies are high?

Success is, of course, a composite of the availability of opportunity and individuals’ willingness and ability to take opportunities. On the level of the individual, the individual and serendipity play a big role, as does society - it being big. On the level of society and our shared success, the serendipity evens out and one individual typically won’t make much difference - optimising and spreading opportunity is key to our success. That is as central to capitalism as it is socialism. Efforts to protect privilege are inefficient in any economic system.

Yes, people can and do overcome adversity. Everyone has to. But... you’re familiar with pricing models, yeah? You put up the price by 5% say, and demand drops a certain amount. 5% doesn’t seem like much, and if an individual wants the something enough they’ll sacrifice something else... and probably most individuals still buy. Each time the price or barrier is raised the number of people who drop out increases. More credit to those that keep going, fair enough, but this isn’t just or even primarily about personal kudos, this isn’t a proving ground or about looking good for the sake of it, it’s about allowing as many people to be as good as they can be for the benefit of all. With the help of a decent speech writer, I reckon I could earn a cheer with that from a good section of the audience at the Tory party conference.

You made a key point in an earlier, I think, about seeing opportunity - that resonated with me. I’ll come back to that, when I have some more time - for me that’s where change comes from.

Re: New sides : Tue May 05, 2020 7:33 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Everybody has 99% of all opportunities - most simply can't see the opportunity and don't have the desire to take it.

Although theoretically true,this is an absolute myth.
There are exceptions to every rule but the chances of success in life if you are from a "poor" background, perhaps with only 1 parent and then throw in some ethnic diversity and the amount of grease on the pole increases exponentially.
The vast, vast majority of those who are most successful come from those who are dealt the strongest hand from birth.

The difference in going through the state education system, compared with being privately educated is another huge factor.

I believe that anyone can succeed given the right opportunities to do so but, those opportunities are somewhat harder to come by if you start too far down the shaft.

For some kids, even getting to school every day is an achievement

Re: New sides : Tue May 05, 2020 8:08 am  

Bell curve theory of intelligence.

Re: New sides : Tue May 05, 2020 8:10 am  

Backwoodsman wrote:

Bell curve theory of intelligence.

Ask Michael Gove about that one - he's a big fan.

Re: New sides : Tue May 05, 2020 11:33 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Although theoretically true,this is an absolute myth.
There are exceptions to every rule but the chances of success in life if you are from a "poor" background, perhaps with only 1 parent and then throw in some ethnic diversity and the amount of grease on the pole increases exponentially.
The vast, vast majority of those who are most successful come from those who are dealt the strongest hand from birth.

The difference in going through the state education system, compared with being privately educated is another huge factor.

I believe that anyone can succeed given the right opportunities to do so but, those opportunities are somewhat harder to come by if you start too far down the shaft.

For some kids, even getting to school every day is an achievement

I take your point but I don't agree with it - in any environment there is a pyramid structure - whether its a supermarket chain or a drug gang - there is only one person at the top and many more underneath. If you are born with higher intelligence you have a greater opportunity - that has nothing to do with wealth - in fact the opposite. State education against private will have an impact only because usually the parents are more engaged and for me that is what makes the difference the family environment - it is no surprise that kids that do well from more basic beginnings are those whose parents see the value in education and are both engaged and supportive. They also believe in opportunity - and supporting their children's hopes and aspirations. They are not beat before they start with all this only the toffs get on - its absolute rubbish.

Re: New sides : Fri May 08, 2020 7:46 am  

[Mild Rover]

Re: New sides : Fri May 08, 2020 8:16 am  

Very good point, very well made.

Enjoy the sunshine (safely and responsibly) friends and frenemies.