[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:17 pm  

POSTL wrote:

I am just catching up with the latest goings on with the commons votes last night as I was in Bakewell.

Am I correct that they voted
1) yes to take non deal off the table
2) they then voted no to extending the time
3) Teresa May is now going back to the EU, to unpick and improve her own so called best and only deal.

Fills me with the upmost of confidence.

1. Yes, but it is non-binding. It’s clearly way too early to be committing to anything too definite... March is ages away.
Mind you the referendum itself was non-binding, although not at all sold that way.
2. Yep.
3. Yes - with the probability that that the EU will tell her to do one, unless she offers something significant in return. In extremis we could chuck money at the problem, I suppose. Either way, I suspect some in the ERG might vote down a revised deal anyway and that they see this as way of killing a couple of weeks hunting unicorns.

May, could offer Labour something against that eventuality - but what, and how could they trust it’d still stand after the final vote, if it wasn’t baked into the deal itself?

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:06 pm  

POSTL wrote:

Can you explain why Farage is a fascist please ??

1.1 A person who is extremely right-wing or authoritarian.
‘thousands of fascists and nationalists marched in the capital’

1.2 A person who is very intolerant or domineering in a particular area.
‘I'm a bit of a spelling fascist, but still have blind spots over words like ‘privilege’ or ‘separate’’

He seems to fit the first definition quite well and that is without actually being in power.
God help us if that actually does happen.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:19 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

1.1 A person who is extremely right-wing or authoritarian.
‘thousands of fascists and nationalists marched in the capital’

1.2 A person who is very intolerant or domineering in a particular area.
‘I'm a bit of a spelling fascist, but still have blind spots over words like ‘privilege’ or ‘separate’’

He seems to fit the first definition quite well and that is without actually being in power.
God help us if that actually does happen.

Am I wrong but thought He had quit UKIP over their involvement with Tommy Robinson who is right wing

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:35 pm  

POSTL wrote:

Am I wrong but thought He had quit UKIP over their involvement with Tommy Robinson who is right wing

Would you not agree that UKIP are far more right wing than The Troy party ?
And claiming that Farage did anything, other than to suit his himself and his own agenda is just dreamland.

He quit as leader because UKP bombed in the 2017 election, anything else that you want to attach to his departure was secondary and maybe gave him an "excuse", so that he didn't appear to be running away from a failed political party.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:21 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Would you not agree that UKIP are far more right wing than The Troy party ?
And claiming that Farage did anything, other than to suit his himself and his own agenda is just dreamland.

He quit as leader because UKP bombed in the 2017 election, anything else that you want to attach to his departure was secondary and maybe gave him an "excuse", so that he didn't appear to be running away from a failed political party.

I was on the cusp of voting for UKIP in 2017 but decided to vote Labour because as somebody else said May thought she could wipe the floor with Labour and we do need a good strong opposition party but for no other reason, as much as it grieves me to do so but I would agree that they now seem to be far more right wing as mentioned therefore I would not vote for them.

To think that any current politician doesn't do anything that suits him or her agenda is dreamland in my opinion.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:23 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

1. Yes, but it is non-binding. It’s clearly way too early to be committing to anything too definite... March is ages away.
Mind you the referendum itself was non-binding, although not at all sold that way.
2. Yep.
3. Yes - with the probability that that the EU will tell her to do one, unless she offers something significant in return. In extremis we could chuck money at the problem, I suppose. Either way, I suspect some in the ERG might vote down a revised deal anyway and that they see this as way of killing a couple of weeks hunting unicorns.

May, could offer Labour something against that eventuality - but what, and how could they trust it’d still stand after the final vote, if it wasn’t baked into the deal itself?

Thank you for the update mate

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:33 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

That cuts two ways though. We can’t, with a straight face, call them for intransigence? Surely, as a nation, we’re not that lacking in self awareness?

Also, a time-limited backstop isn’t really backstop. What comes after the time runs out?

Name-calling and self-awareness is irrelevant.

Look at it this way. If Parliament simply will not vote any deal through containing an open-ended backstop, we go to no deal. At that point the EU have a decision to mate - they either accept a hard border and damaging arrangements both ways (it won't be pleasant for them, either) - or they place some sort of limitation on the backstop and we get a reasonable deal.

The EU know that given a choice of hard border or a backstop renegotiation, there is only one option. Even today we've heard some in the EU saying they want to see the backstop renegotiated for everyone's sake.

However, if May adheres to last night's amendment and no-deal is ruled out, we don't have that card to play. The EU can sit back and let us fight it out, knowing they get their deal...or we remain, which cannot happen.

It really is as simple, but crucial, as that.

Is it that he hasn’t said the first of those things?

Hmmm. I can't find a quote but I'm pretty positive he said he would 'vote against any deal the government brought to the table' at some point. In fact, Theresa May quoted the same today in PMQs, and such language in Parliament has to be accurate.

But the fact remains - if you vote against 'no deal', you HAVE to vote for some deal.

Labour have latched on to the whole idea of removing no deal as nothing more than a stick to beat the government with and to vote down any deal - in the hope of forcing a General Election.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:37 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

1.1 A person who is extremely right-wing or authoritarian.
‘thousands of fascists and nationalists marched in the capital’

1.2 A person who is very intolerant or domineering in a particular area.
‘I'm a bit of a spelling fascist, but still have blind spots over words like ‘privilege’ or ‘separate’’

He seems to fit the first definition quite well and that is without actually being in power.
God help us if that actually does happen.

I would suspect your point one applies to any dictator left or right - plenty of fascists with left wing "controlling tendancies" as we see in Venezuala.


I would suggest Corbyn fits your your second point - its is either his way or the highway as it was under Blair/Mandelson.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:47 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I would suspect your point one applies to any dictator left or right - plenty of fascists with left wing "controlling tendancies" as we see in Venezuala.


I would suggest Corbyn fits your second point - its is either his way or the highway as it was under Blair/Mandelson.

Extremists on either side of the political divide aren't a good thing, although, with Farage's anti immigration agenda, I'll stick with Blair or Corbyn thank you.
The 2 main parties in the UK both drifted towards the centre ground through the 90's and 00's and inevitably, after such a period of financial turmoil, which the main culprits have escaped any kind of "justice", it was inevitable that both parties would move to the left and right and in Farage's case, even further right.
He always tried to sell UKIP as not being racist etc but, the reality is different and the worry is just how many people wanted to follow his agenda. They too say that they are not racist etc, they just dont like people from other countries coming over here but, many of those same people are happy to go and live in France or Spain and complain like hell when they cant get their daily fix of Roast Beef or Fish and Chips
We expect to be treated with dignity and respect when we visit or live abroad but, far too many Brits, especially now, believe this is "our country" with "our jobs"

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:52 am  

Cronus wrote:

Name-calling and self-awareness is irrelevant.

Look at it this way. If Parliament simply will not vote any deal through containing an open-ended backstop, we go to no deal. At that point the EU have a decision to mate - they either accept a hard border and damaging arrangements both ways (it won't be pleasant for them, either) - or they place some sort of limitation on the backstop and we get a reasonable deal.

The EU know that given a choice of hard border or a backstop renegotiation, there is only one option. Even today we've heard some in the EU saying they want to see the backstop renegotiated for everyone's sake.

However, if May adheres to last night's amendment and no-deal is ruled out, we don't have that card to play. The EU can sit back and let us fight it out, knowing they get their deal...or we remain, which cannot happen.

It really is as simple, but crucial, as that..

But key to a successful negotiation is understanding your partner’s position and all that can be turned around on us.

Look at it this way. If the EU simply will not vote any deal through that doesn’t contain an open-ended backstop, we go to no deal. At that point we have a decision to make - we either accept a hard border and damaging arrangements both ways (it will be more unpleasant for us,) - or we accept the backstop and we can all move on to ensuring it is never needed.

The EU know that given a choice of hard border or a backstop renegotiation, there is only one option - because we have massively screwed this up. However, there are other options, and they won’t see it as their fault if we refuse to take one. Every day they hear UK politicians of different parties saying all sorts of different things, so they know we know they exist.

Ateod, if the swivel eyed loons of the ERG are driving the process, they know it is doomed - so why even bother?

Cronus wrote:

Hmmm. I can't find a quote but I'm pretty positive he said he would 'vote against any deal the government brought to the table' at some point. In fact, Theresa May quoted the same today in PMQs, and such language in Parliament has to be accurate.

But the fact remains - if you vote against 'no deal', you HAVE to vote for some deal.

Labour have latched on to the whole idea of removing no deal as nothing more than a stick to beat the government with and to vote down any deal - in the hope of forcing a General Election.

He’s indicated what sort of deal he and labour would vote for. It’s not been a vision May has been remotely interested in and it has unicorn elements too. However, now they’re finally talking, there’s a slim chance of getting something that could get cross-party support. May’s real dilemma at the moment is no deal or split the Tory party. There’s no way to bridge the positions of the ERG and EU, imo.