Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:15 am  

Cronus wrote:

Hmmm. I can't find a quote but I'm pretty positive he said he would 'vote against any deal the government brought to the table' at some point. In fact, Theresa May quoted the same today in PMQs, and such language in Parliament has to be accurate.

No - he said he would vote against Mrs May's deal - and that if she took the threat of no deal off the table, he would meet with her, which he duly did when she was forced to do so.

And if you believe that everything said in parliament is accurate, you're extremely naïve - that convention died a long time ago.

Mrs May will go to Brussels and get nothing meaningful - meanwhile, Labour has a perfectly workable plan which removes the need for a backstop, that the EU has already indicated it would support; and now, reports suggest that a group of senior Tories are saying the same thing. Quite how Mrs May would spin adopting Corbyn's position is difficult to imagine, but I'm sure the Daily Mail will help pitch it as a triumph or a victory or some other nonsense.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:56 am  

bren2k wrote:

No - he said he would vote against Mrs May's deal - and that if she took the threat of no deal off the table, he would meet with her, which he duly did when she was forced to do so.

And if you believe that everything said in parliament is accurate, you're extremely naïve - that convention died a long time ago.

Mrs May will go to Brussels and get nothing meaningful - meanwhile, Labour has a perfectly workable plan which removes the need for a backstop, that the EU has already indicated it would support; and now, reports suggest that a group of senior Tories are saying the same thing. Quite how Mrs May would spin adopting Corbyn's position is difficult to imagine, but I'm sure the Daily Mail will help pitch it as a triumph or a victory or some other nonsense.

What workable plan do the "everybody out, up yours capitalism, go terrorists" party have?

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:35 am  

MGarbutt1986 wrote:

What workable plan do the "everybody out, up yours capitalism, go terrorists" party have?

I was thinking that myself, ive obviously missed something (no surprise there), the last plan I heard from Labour was that nothing was off the table. Oh they have said they want to take our biggest bargaining chip ":No Deal" off the table, which after 2 years is pretty poor, will google Labours position to see if they can find it.

I am traditionally a Labour voter and was made up when they didn't oppose triggering article 50, I even agreed when he said we should be in a customs union (not THE Customs Union) and at the time thought that Corbyn couldn't do right for doping wrong. But I now feel really let down.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:01 am  

POSTL wrote:

I was thinking that myself, ive obviously missed something (no surprise there), the last plan I heard from Labour was that nothing was off the table. Oh they have said they want to take our biggest bargaining chip ":No Deal" off the table, which after 2 years is pretty poor, will google Labours position to see if they can find it.

I am traditionally a Labour voter and was made up when they didn't oppose triggering article 50, I even agreed when he said we should be in a customs union (not THE Customs Union) and at the time thought that Corbyn couldn't do right for doping wrong. But I now feel really let down.

I think the key decisions for Labour are:

1. If May winds the clock down to a minute to midnight and ERG and DUP won’t support her, do Labour swing in behind her deal to avoid no deal? What can they extract for doing so, in terms of workers’ rights, environmental protections etc.? They also need to consider how badly the electorate would crucify them for saving us. Corbyn will not want to be the second coming of Nick Clegg.

2. Can they persuade May to risk splitting her party by accepting a customs union? Probably not, and I think ‘a customs arrangement’ vs ‘the customs union’ may be a distinction without much of a difference. However, it makes the backstop issue disappear, and business would be relieved.

One of the ironies of all this is that people to the left of centre (like me) are suddenly worried about big business, while the party of capital says f*** them - literally in Boris Johnson’s case. Funny old world.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:11 am  

Mild Rover wrote:

One of the ironies of all this is that people to the left of centre (like me) are suddenly worried about big business, while the party of capital says f*** them - literally in Boris Johnson’s case. Funny old world.

It's quite a role reversal, isn't it?!

[Bullseye]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:11 am  

Must say I’m struggling to see how “no deal” is a bargaining chip for us.

Corbyn’s problem is that his party is almost as divided as the Tories. Both leaders are frightened of losing the support of hard line Brexiters in their own party and amongst the electorate and they don’t have sufficient support to jump one way or the other. It means the whole thing is paralysed.

Apparently there’s no majority for no deal in Parliament but MPs can’t agree what to coalesce around as a compromise. The ERG are clearly nudging the process along with this in mind as it makes “no deal” more likely.

I can see an extension being applied for since more people now seem to think that there isn’t even time before 29 March to bring in required legislation for no deal now.

The only way out of this for me is a three way referendum to decide which version of leave we go for. May’s Deal, No Deal or Norway/Switzerland.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:46 am  

MGarbutt1986 wrote:

What workable plan do the "everybody out, up yours capitalism, go terrorists" party have?

I can see I'm debating with a finely honed political mind here... but nonetheless.

Labour's proposed deal with the EU is and always has been very clearly defined - they would seek to remain in the customs union and single market, because that safeguards jobs, the economy and rights and protections i.e consumer, employment, environment etc.

It removes the need for a backstop, doesn't pander to the xenophobic rush to end FoM, but still honours the result of the referendum; much like Mrs May's crappy deal, it doesn't give everyone everything they want, but since the events of the past 2 years have proven that there is no possible way of delivering a Brexit that does that, it is a plan that the EU can work with, and would probably command a majority in the HoC - and might have the added value of causing the odious JRM and Peter Bone to expire in their seats in a fit of apoplectic rage.

There you go - Brexit done; now we can move on to homelessness, NHS and social care funding crisis, the disaster that is UC, funding for schools, affordable housing etc etc.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:47 am  

Bullseye wrote:

Must say I’m struggling to see how “no deal” is a bargaining chip for us.

It is a bit like threatening to stab yourself in the neck and reminding others that their clothes will be ruined by the arterial splatter, imo.

Bullseye wrote:

May’s Deal, No Deal or Norway/Switzerland.

I read somewhere that the EU feels it dropped the ball on their deal with Switzerland. I can't remember why. Which is maybe why it isn't mentioned often.

We do now, finally, somehow need to make a choice. And tbh, I think it needs to be in parliament at this stage.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:57 am  

bren2k wrote:

I can see I'm debating with a finely honed political mind here... but nonetheless.

Labour's proposed deal with the EU is and always has been very clearly defined - they would seek to remain in the customs union and single market, because that safeguards jobs, the economy and rights and protections i.e consumer, employment, environment etc.

It removes the need for a backstop, doesn't pander to the xenophobic rush to end FoM, but still honours the result of the referendum; much like Mrs May's crappy deal, it doesn't give everyone everything they want, but since the events of the past 2 years have proven that there is no possible way of delivering a Brexit that does that, it is a plan that the EU can work with, and would probably command a majority in the HoC - and might have the added value of causing the odious JRM and Peter Bone to expire in their seats in a fit of apoplectic rage.

There you go - Brexit done; now we can move on to homelessness, NHS and social care funding crisis, the disaster that is UC, funding for schools, affordable housing etc etc.

I'd vote for that every day and twice on Sunday. However, it is a BRINO and it'd be more than just JRM, my own MP Andrew Bridgen and Bone who'd be angered. We really are screwed every which way.

For me, May's deal with some carved-in-stone guarantees on Labour priorities and everybody (well, enough bodies) swallowing their reservations on the backstop (which does leave us in a weak position for the next stage, I accept) is the best escape route. Best still doesn't necessarily equate to likely or good though, unfortunately.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:10 pm  

bren2k wrote:

now we can move on to homelessness, NHS and social care funding crisis, the disaster that is UC, funding for schools, affordable housing etc etc.

Yes, all those things the EU & their pesky rules are responsible for causing.....